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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
Posted: 25-January-2005 at 07:44 | |
Oh REALLY? Depends what standards you're applying. Few years ago my brother wanted a late SL. He knew exactly what he was looking for. We found plenty of 8k cars up for 13k+. Badly fitted pattern wings, rusty hardtops, leaky engines. All the sellers seemed to think they had mint examples worthy of the highest price. Eventually we found a proper cared for 300SL with 72k miles for 16500. He's sold it now but keeps an eye on prices in case he's tempted again. They aren't getting any cheaper. What is "mint" to one person is is rough to another. Also, you may not like the Stag but plenty of people do - that's why it's prices are so firm. Each to their own.
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
Posted: 25-January-2005 at 15:57 | |
"All the sellers seemed to think they had mint
examples worthy of the highest price". Yes, there are lots of doggy ones - you have to look for good ones and for ten grand you will find something nice. A colleague of mine bought a one owner 500SL from 1984, 65'000 miles with history and in proper condition for 6500. Trouble was, it was a foul pinky white - but it was an honest original unrusty car. The colour killed it sadly and he struggled to sell it on again. "Also, you may not like the Stag but plenty of people do - that's why it's prices are so firm". Well, there's one born every minute. Never overestimate the intelligence of the general public. The Stag was a piece of rubbish in 1970, but like all the other nasty British landfill, it's one of the first cars muppets think off when you mention 'lovely shiny classic car'. The fact that it wasn't much good when it was new (and they were absolute garbage) is of little consequence. An American friend of mine had a new one in '73 and it was completely useless, never ending drama and aggro with 2 engines and 2 autoboxes in the space of a year. Hmm, a real classic. But apparently it did look good on the hard shoulder once the steam had died down. |
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Horsetan
Really Senior Member II Say Neigh to Gatsos Joined: 11-April-2003 Location: Please let it be Ireland Status: Offline Points: 6381 |
Posted: 25-January-2005 at 18:21 | |
....or indeed WCUK government (local or central), or WCUK companies, WCUK contractors, sub-contractors.... in fact almost anything originating in WCUK. The only thing WCUK seems to do well is nostalgia for the Golden Age.... which never existed. |
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
Posted: 26-January-2005 at 07:14 | |
Such vehemence towards the poor Stag! Did you have an embarrassing experience in one? Yes the Stag had build quality problems just like every other British built car at the time but then so did the French & Italians. I actually wrote a thesis on BL in the mid 70s and had to research the subject quite closely. Initially the Stag was supposed to have the Rover (nee Buick) V8 but a combination of internal politics (Rover vs Triumph) & shortage of engines meant Triumph had to come up with an alternative quickly. Their solution was to mate two Dolly Sprint engines together to produce a V8, a process used by many manufacturers. On paper a SOHC 3.0litre V8 was good but lack of time & funds for development pushed it into production too quickly. The majority of problems surrounding the Stags engine can be traced to poor maintenance of a marginal cooling system. Ironically, the same problem reared its head at BMW a decade later and for the same reason. Rust was a problem for all cars (including BMW). Remember, it was 35 years ago. The fact that a higher proportion of Stags have survived than CS coupes says something about their status and desirability. Of course, all those "muppets" who've bought a Stag could be wrong & Andy Boy is right but I doubt it. I think I know who the muppet is. Strangely, of all the cars built in the 70s the miserable Allegro has proved able to withstand the rust bug better than most! Maybe it was out of spite! |
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B10VYT
Senior Member II Joined: 03-November-2003 Location: Sheffield Status: Offline Points: 169 |
Posted: 26-January-2005 at 08:26 | |
Alternatively, with 10 and a MIG welder...
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Nick
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
Posted: 26-January-2005 at 10:23 | |
Ha ha, good one ! Now get an Allegro front end on the Touring! |
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B10VYT
Senior Member II Joined: 03-November-2003 Location: Sheffield Status: Offline Points: 169 |
Posted: 26-January-2005 at 10:32 | |
Sorry Andy - your beautiful Six didn't deserve that!
Even better...I've got a Allegro 'Vanden Plas' front end somewhere! |
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Nick
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
Posted: 26-January-2005 at 11:06 | |
The problems the Stag had were nothing to do with
poor maintenance - the troubles were occurring when these cars were new. The Stag came first and the Dolomite 1850 appeared two years later. The only things they really shared was one cylinder head. But anyway....... The Stag engine was fatally flawed due to the crazy design of the cylinder head studs where the top set went in as normal and the lower ones went in.....AT AN ANGLE!!! Can you believe that? If Triumph tried to design a bike, it would probably have square wheels. Angled head studs CANNOT exert the same clamping force as a proper one, fact. That'll be a blown head gasket or two then. The timing chain. This was the crappiest quality chain BL could find and they need replacing after just 30'000 miles. Brilliant. On my friend's car, the tensioner came loose and the engine destroyed itself as the chain jumped several teeth. (first engine) The distributor. Made by Lucas so assured of quality then. It was a copy of the Rolls Royce V8 unit but cost about 2 shillings to make. The points used to play up plus the bob weights would jam on full advance. This would blow the engine up because the timing was dramatically over advanced. The cooling system. The expansion bottle, for some incredible reason, was actually mounted BELOW the level of the coolant in the engine. Let's siphon all the coolant out of the engine and into this bottle then, causing an air lock. Fantastic, inspired design. You try getting rid of the air locks and topping up the cooling system after it's spat it all out on the M4. Plus of course the water pump which, like the Dolomite, sits on top of the engine and is driven by the jackshaft (oil pump I think). If it wasn't shimmed perfectly, it would either cavitate the water or not do anything. No, the Stag really was a masterpiece and I'm gutted I don't own one. Also, there were 20'000 (?) Stags built and unlike other Triumphs they were not exported to the USA so most of them stayed here, worst luck. I think about 3000 CS Coupes were imported in total and yes, they were a rusty old crock as well and far worse for rust than a Stag. But at least it was a genuinely nice car when it was new. The Yanks would have taken one look at that crap V8 and just laughed. With a Rover unit it could have been very good of course. Never mind. The Allegro? Now that's vicous!! But the story of BL is fascinating and very sad; under investment in the sixties and a blind faith in Issigonis, a series of truly rubbish cars in the seventies, Derek Robinson, Edwardes.......an idea for a TV Drama? |
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
Posted: 27-January-2005 at 07:52 | |
As I said, time & money were against them. The Stag was released in 1970 (too soon as I said) & the Dolomite was launched in 1971. The engine design was already under way when the Stag engine idea came up. Like so many British engineering projects Triumph were forced to work with what they had (not much). And yes, some of the design features were questionable. The Lotus Twin Cam of 1962 had a crap water pump design too. Saab used the Dolomite engine in the 99 & it took them quite a while to iron out the problems. A missed opportunity but it wasn't the first & it won't be the last. |
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Rhys
Moderator Group Coffee addict... Joined: 02-February-2003 Location: from the Latin locātiō Status: Offline Points: 10053 |
Posted: 27-January-2005 at 13:06 | |
Did they? didn't know that. I thought the 2 litre engine in the 99 was a Saab's own engine. I know the engine in the 96 was a Triumph V4 IIRC, after that I thought they designed and built their own. I may be wrong, will have to read up on it. (my dad is a big Saab fan, and has had a 96, a 99L, a 900GLS and is currently on his 2nd, a 900i (old shape, not the General Motors one) |
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V reg Rustbucket Merc C220 Cdi estate
J Reg Saab 900i 16v '63 Ford Anglia 105e deluxe R reg Honda PC50 moped.. No BMW as yet... |
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Horsetan
Really Senior Member II Say Neigh to Gatsos Joined: 11-April-2003 Location: Please let it be Ireland Status: Offline Points: 6381 |
Posted: 27-January-2005 at 16:23 | |
Triumph V4??? Thought it was a Ford V4..... |
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Rhys
Moderator Group Coffee addict... Joined: 02-February-2003 Location: from the Latin locātiō Status: Offline Points: 10053 |
Posted: 27-January-2005 at 16:28 | |
I stand corrected "The Ford 1,498cc V4 engine delivered 65hp aat 4,700rpm and saw 100kph from rest in just 16 seconds. The unit was capable of 155kph although Saab factory technicians recommended a maximum cruising speed of 140kph." Taken from here. ..and indeed the engine from the 99 was from Triumph. Saab 99. You live and learn. Edited by Rhys |
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V reg Rustbucket Merc C220 Cdi estate
J Reg Saab 900i 16v '63 Ford Anglia 105e deluxe R reg Honda PC50 moped.. No BMW as yet... |
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Horsetan
Really Senior Member II Say Neigh to Gatsos Joined: 11-April-2003 Location: Please let it be Ireland Status: Offline Points: 6381 |
Posted: 27-January-2005 at 16:36 | |
This may have been something to do with the fact that the WCUK-built V4 engine generated a ****load of vibration. German-built V4s (as used in the Ford Taunus) were reportedly a lot smoother.... The V4 grew to 2-litre capacity in later years, most notoriously being used as a replacement for the (at the time) flawed NSU rotary engine in the otherwise sybaritic Ro80..... |
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Brucey
Really Senior Member II Joined: 07-March-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 744 |
Posted: 27-January-2005 at 18:05 | |
The SAAB engineers got cheesed off with the Triumph engine and re-engineered quite a lot of it. Some time in 900 series production they came out with their own 16v DOHC 2000cc engine, and this was an undoubted improvement. How much of the Triumph design was carried over I don't know, but the 16v SAAB lump (although basically strong) also has an unhealthy appetite for head gaskets (although not in turbo form so much, strangely); SAAB dealers hold extensive stocks of gaskets, and the parts guy will know the number off by heart... Stags were 'quite nice' in their day but the camchains were rubbish, as were the cylinder head studs, and a few other little gems. A chum of mine has one, and although it looks OK at a few paces substantial amounts of the bodywork are now repair sections of various kinds. Other 'novel' design features include aluminium wheel nuts, guaranteed never to loosen accidentally as they corrode into place within minutes. Rust was designed in to the Stag; I gather that, just to make sure it set in well, bare metal bodies had to be transferred across the road from one shop to another. Since they wouldn't fit through the underpass that was constucted for the purpose, they were driven by road, on open topped lorries, in all weathers. Still, you'd be hard-pushed to find a more pleasant vehicle for bimbling around the lanes in on a summer's day. cheers
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~~~~~~~ Brucey ~~~~~~ |
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
Posted: 27-January-2005 at 19:04 | |
....apart from a Mercedes SL, that is.
The Triumph engine was used in the Saab 99 three years before the Dolomite, coming out in late 1969 but the first engines were 1700cc. These became 1850cc in 1971/2 when the 1850 Dolomite appeared but by 1974, Saab had designed their own 2 litre engine which shares next to nothing with the Triumph thing. The V4 used in the 95/96 was the 1500 Cologne unit as used in the German Taunus. Ford Germany made the V4 as a 1300 for the basic Capri, the biggest being the 1700. The 2 litre German Capris used a V6 whereras out stuff had the lovely 2 litre V4. NASTY Then the Pinto engine appeared.......... |
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robs e23
Really Senior Member I Joined: 28-January-2005 Location: colchester essex Status: Offline Points: 498 |
Posted: 28-January-2005 at 09:03 | |
what you want is a e12 520 top car, its got to be an auto or a e23 better car... hi andy hows things mate...
Edited by robs e23 |
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Philip
Really Senior Member II E23 the forgotten 80s BMW Joined: 28-January-2005 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 1425 |
Posted: 28-January-2005 at 09:07 | |
andyboy has gone to lie down in a darkened room Rob, you've upset him On the subject of the classic e12 Dreadnoughts does anyone know anything about the very early 520 & 520i with the 4 cyl M10 2002 & 2002Tii motors?
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Philip
'86 E23 735iA SE - Polaris - The Silver Surfer '85 E23 735iA SE - Cosmos Blue - VJ '86 E28 528iA SE - Dia Black - Helga '86 E23 728iA SE - Polaris - The CHAV mobile |
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
Posted: 28-January-2005 at 10:30 | |
Oh No, it's the Doom Crew come back to haunt me!!
How's it going Lads? I trust I'm being Royally chastised on the new 7 Series forum? Early 520? Firstly, they've all rusted away, secondly, they aren't making any more..... |
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Philip
Really Senior Member II E23 the forgotten 80s BMW Joined: 28-January-2005 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 1425 |
Posted: 28-January-2005 at 10:38 | |
At last, you're back from the pub andyboy. The new forum is seriously dull thus far. not many members so far, about 65 in all. If you hate Stags, do you also hate Dolomites, TR6 and 2500 PI/TC. I take it you really hate TR7?
my mate had a TR7 drophead in Pharoah Gold - mmm tasty!
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Philip
'86 E23 735iA SE - Polaris - The Silver Surfer '85 E23 735iA SE - Cosmos Blue - VJ '86 E28 528iA SE - Dia Black - Helga '86 E23 728iA SE - Polaris - The CHAV mobile |
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robs e23
Really Senior Member I Joined: 28-January-2005 Location: colchester essex Status: Offline Points: 498 |
Posted: 28-January-2005 at 10:40 | |
just winding you up mate, subject is now dropped.
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