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Dergside
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 16-May-2004
Location: Mid West, Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 4000
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Posted: 24-November-2004 at 05:50 |
Rob Right wrote:
Given the recent personal attacks on the directors of MG Rover by Jim O'Donnell, managing director of BMW GB, is this a sign that that BMW are now nervous about the threat that a potentially revitalised Rover could pose to BMW? |
Going back to the very first part of the discussion. My view is that MGR is such a long way from being a threat to BMW that it is highly unlikely that this is the basis for the comment (not being complacent in that, it will be a long time before Rover cars are back to being mentioned in the same sentence as a BMW model, at any level).
The management behind the MGR buy-out from BMW have been in the news for all the wrong reasons too often in the past few years and this is more likely to be the basis for the comments. Remember, BMW gave MGR away with a fairly substantial dowry and alot of that has been ****** away or directed to non productive ends since then (e.g. substantial pension contributions for the most senior management). If I was BMW I'd feel a little put out about that.
In addition it appears that there has been significant asset disposals going on (read in the past few days about more "surplus" land disposals around Longbridge to developers) and very little is finding its way in to product development that the company needs to survive past the near term. Could this be asset stripping?
V8 engined 75's and niche MG supercars aren't much more than PR exercises and the most that has happened to the real lifeblood of the company (25, 45 and 75 and badge variants) is mild tinkering about with non metal parts (i.e. minimum cost). In the case of the 75 facelift, the results have been astonishingly bad and change purely for the sake of change.
For the shopfloor workers there is no option but to submit and the realization must be that in the long term the writing is on the wall. Rolls Royces and Bentley's are being substantially made in Germany these days and soon Saab may not be building cars in their native country. This is business without sentiment and the only value of heritage and history is its use in marketing. Its not pretty, but its the way of the world whether we agree with it or not.
Edited to remove objectionable language, please read the forum guidelines
Edited by Nigel
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stephenperry
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 20-April-2004
Location: Elgin
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Points: 7213
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Posted: 24-November-2004 at 16:37 |
excellent Dergside, my sentiments exactly, although you put it more eloquently than i ever could
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2007 Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCI Titanium X Auto
1983 Ford Sierra XR4i
2000 Alpina B10 3.3 #118
1999 BMW 323Ci
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Goldryder
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Joined: 02-April-2004
Location: Acomb, North Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 5301
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Posted: 24-November-2004 at 16:43 |
Dergside wrote:
Rolls Royces are being substantially made in Germany
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erm...sorry to argue here but since when has Goodwood been in Germany,
there is a state of the art factory built partially underground for
environmental reasons churning out Rollers quite nicely, and they are
going from strength to strength.
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Rhys
Moderator Group
Coffee addict...
Joined: 02-February-2003
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Posted: 24-November-2004 at 19:42 |
Goldryder wrote:
Dergside wrote:
Rolls Royces are being substantially made in Germany
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erm...sorry to argue here but since when has Goodwood been in Germany,
there is a state of the art factory built partially underground for
environmental reasons churning out Rollers quite nicely, and they are
going from strength to strength.
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..don't suppose the brollies are made in China are they?
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V reg Rustbucket Merc C220 Cdi estate J Reg Saab 900i 16v '63 Ford Anglia 105e deluxe R reg Honda PC50 moped..
No BMW as yet...
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Goldryder
Bavarian-Board Contributor
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Posted: 24-November-2004 at 19:48 |
probably China or Taiwan or Korea.....probably another diversification from Daewoo
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October 2-6 2008 - Houston, Texas - Long Distance Wedding
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Rhys
Moderator Group
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Posted: 24-November-2004 at 20:04 |
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kbannon
Admin Group
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Posted: 24-November-2004 at 20:09 |
Goldryder wrote:
probably China or Taiwan or Korea.....probably another diversification from Daewoo
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Daewoo are now Chevrolet. Brings that marque down a bit, dont ya think! ...drove my daewoo to the levy but the levy was dry...
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Current: 2009 E60 520d "Sport" tractor Previous: 1989 E30 320i SE 1997 E39 523i 2003 E39 525i Sport Individual
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Rhys
Moderator Group
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Posted: 24-November-2004 at 20:13 |
kbannon wrote:
Goldryder wrote:
probably China or Taiwan or Korea.....probably another diversification from Daewoo | Daewoo are now Chevrolet. Brings that marque down a bit, dont ya think!...drove my daewoo to the levy but the levy was dry... |
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V reg Rustbucket Merc C220 Cdi estate J Reg Saab 900i 16v '63 Ford Anglia 105e deluxe R reg Honda PC50 moped..
No BMW as yet...
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Goldryder
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Joined: 02-April-2004
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Posted: 24-November-2004 at 20:13 |
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Rob Right
Newbie
Joined: 20-July-2003
Status: Offline
Points: 7
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Posted: 24-November-2004 at 20:41 |
Dergside wrote:
The management behind the MGR buy-out from BMW have been in the news for all the wrong reasons too often in the past few years and this is more likely to be the basis for the comments. Remember, BMW gave MGR away with a fairly substantial dowry and alot of that has been ****** away or directed to non productive ends since then (e.g. substantial pension contributions for the most senior management). If I was BMW I'd feel a little put out about that.
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What right do BMW have to pass comment on anything that MGR management do? BMW would no doubt have closed Rover down given half a chance. It was only the cost and the potential damage inflicted on the BMW brand name that made them hand it over to Phoenix.
This was by far the cheapest option for them - in the event of closure the Rover dealer network were likely to claim significant damages, as well as pension liabilities and redundancy payments potentially running into billions. 500 million was cheap in comparison.
BMW did very well out of Rover. They gained the 4x4 tecnology that made the X3 and X5 possible and then sold Land Rover off for a tidy profit. They also nicked the great icon of British motoring that was the MINI.
Phoenix in comparison have kept MG Rover going, significantly reduced losses and kept many thousands employed against all odds. Now that they look to have secured a deal that should see them return to prosperity it smacks of sour grapes.
One other point - projected BMW volumes for China are 50,000. Projected MGR volumes are 800,000. Wouldn't you be worried?
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 16-May-2004
Location: Mid West, Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 4000
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Posted: 25-November-2004 at 06:00 |
Goldryder wrote:
Dergside wrote:
Rolls Royces are being substantially made in Germany
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erm...sorry to argue here but since when has Goodwood been in Germany, there is a state of the art factory built partially underground for environmental reasons churning out Rollers quite nicely, and they are going from strength to strength.
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To quote BMW World "Final assembly occurs at the energy-efficient Goodwood factory in southern England."
Most parts are made in Germany, but the assembly and finishing is in the factory in Goodwood. With respect, this is not quite the heritage of Rolls and Royce.
Edited by Dergside
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 16-May-2004
Location: Mid West, Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 4000
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Posted: 25-November-2004 at 06:05 |
[/QUOTE]
One other point - projected BMW volumes for China are 50,000. Projected MGR volumes are 800,000. Wouldn't you be worried?
[/QUOTE]
MGR sales projections have been hopelessly optimistic since the Phoenix consortium got involved.
Don't misunderstand me here, I would dearly like to see MGR suceed and become a major force once again, but as long as they continue to bury their head in the sand about the root and extent of their problems then there will be no recovery and eventually they will be absorbed into the "merged" entity and lose their own identity.
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Peter Fenwick
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Joined: 27-August-2003
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Posted: 25-November-2004 at 09:50 |
Dergside wrote:
MGR sales projections have been hopelessly optimistic since the Phoenix consortium got involved.
Don't misunderstand me here, I would dearly like to see MGR suceed and become a major force once again, but as long as they continue to bury their head in the sand about the root and extent of their problems then there will be no recovery and eventually they will be absorbed into the "merged" entity and lose their own identity.
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I doubt that the sales projections for china are too optomistic. The Chinese company (forgotten their name! ) is positioning itself to take advantage of the rapidly expanding car market over there. I suspect that being based in China they will work out a lot cheaper than imported cars such as BMWs (I also wouldn't put it past the Chinese to to increase the tax on imported cars to help sales)
As for "merged" entity that looses it's identity? how is this any different from when GM bought Saab, or Ford bought Jaguar? Most cars companies are owned by large multinationals and most have kept their identity.
The thing we do need to worry about from China is that as they start to buy more cars they will need more petrol and hence more oil. This will put strain on the existing oil supplies and force up the price, or at least keep it at levels that it is currently at today.
Edited by Peter Fenwick
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Goldryder
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Joined: 02-April-2004
Location: Acomb, North Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 5301
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Posted: 25-November-2004 at 15:38 |
Dergside wrote:
Goldryder wrote:
Dergside wrote:
Rolls Royces are being substantially made in Germany
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erm...sorry to argue here but since when has
Goodwood been in Germany, there is a state of the art factory built
partially underground for environmental reasons churning out Rollers
quite nicely, and they are going from strength to strength.
|
To quote BMW World "Final assembly occurs at the energy-efficient Goodwood factory in southern England."
Most parts are made in Germany, but the assembly and finishing is in the factory in Goodwood. With respect, this is not quite the heritage of Rolls and Royce. |
It may not be how things were envisaged by Rolls and Royce when they
first launched their cars, however, these cars are still hand built by
extremely experienced and highly qualified technicians, and who still
wear shirts and ties and not the boilersuits or jeans/jumpers as seen
in the more mass producing car factories. They are surviving and
they are growing back into one of the world's finest car marques
again. The factory at Goodwood has public open days....you might
be wise to go and see it one day, you will be pleasantly
surprised. The R&D dept is totally fascinating as is the
componant assembly areas, spotlessly clean and a very satisfied
workforce. Perhaps this is one purchase in recent years by a
multinational that has gone right for all concerned.
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why the latest merger with the
UK and China will not go right and in time prosper for both countries.
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October 10-25 2009 - China, Korea, Taiwan & Japan Cruise
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-August-2003
Location: Lost somewhere in time...
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Posted: 26-November-2004 at 04:50 |
Goldryder wrote:
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why the latest merger with the UK and China will not go right and in time prosper for both countries.
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My sentiments exactly
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 16-May-2004
Location: Mid West, Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 4000
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Posted: 26-November-2004 at 05:51 |
Goldryder wrote:
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why the latest merger with the UK and China will not go right and in time prosper for both countries.
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As it happens, I also agree, but measuring its success depends on your expectations at the start.
If the expectation is that its a merger of equals and that there will be a significant jobs dividend, etc. on the Rover end, then I feel that those expectations won't be realized.
Also, if there is an expectation that the success will come without some hard decisions and changes (and lets face it MGR, Rover, BL, etc. haven't been renowned for the dynamic capabilities of the organization) then, again, the expectation may not be realized.
I understand, and admire, the support that MGR have on this thread, but there has to be a realism about what the real underlying problems of MGR as an organization have. If that isn't faced then the symptoms may be fixed, in the short term, by the merger, but not the ailment.
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 16-May-2004
Location: Mid West, Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 4000
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Posted: 26-November-2004 at 06:04 |
Peter Fenwick wrote:
As for "merged" entity that looses it's identity? how is this any different from when GM bought Saab, or Ford bought Jaguar? Most cars companies are owned by large multinationals and most have kept their identity.
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Peter, that is debateable. Many people say that Saab has lost its way in recent years, e.g. the 900 from 1993 on. Look at the fact that in the US Scoobie estate are being rebadged as Saab - and may be sold in Europe too. There is a very real possibility that the days Saab production in their native country are numbered.
Their badges may have survived, but in many cases the values and heritage of the brands have been diluted or abandoned as part of a large multinational.
The point is that, like it or not, this is the way the industry is going. I admire the sense of optimism that MGR will become better and have the chance to deliver on its values and heritage, but I don't hold it. What it will probably deliver is an increase in the number of MGR badged cars out there.
If they do deliver the expectation of 800k cars per year, will the number built in the UK grow significantly from where they are now or will they be built in more efficient, green field factories where labour is more flexible and less costly?
I'm NOT having a pop at MGR workers, they do their jobs like I try to do mine.
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Peter H
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Joined: 03-January-2004
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Posted: 27-November-2004 at 14:06 |
Dergside wrote:
[QUOTE=Peter Fenwick]
If they do deliver the expectation of 800k cars per year, will the number built in the UK grow significantly from where they are now or will they be built in more efficient, green field factories where labour is more flexible and less costly?
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MGR have said production at longbridge will rise to @200K Yr
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 16-May-2004
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Points: 4000
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Posted: 28-November-2004 at 15:18 |
If I'm not mistaken, the (medium term) aim when Phoenix took over was in the same vicinity.
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