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Andyboy View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-October-2004 at 08:39
CSL's were no faster than the 3.0 Si saloon of the
time....and certainly didn't drive or handle as well.
Sadly though, the E3 is regarded as just another old
BMW saloon nobody wants which is a pity. With
these you get all the pros and cons of as classic car.
As for 635CSi's, the original with the LSD, dogleg
gearbox and Bilsteins would eat a CSL alive. They
were every bit as exciting as the older car but much
more useable. Most of them have rotted away
though. Those early 3.5 motors were excellent. The
later ones (after about 80/81) were toned down when
BMW tried to combine the 635 with the 'Mr Softie'
633.

MMU 98L, R.I.P
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marc.lovell View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-October-2004 at 10:35

CSL's were no faster than the 3.0 Si saloon of the
time....and certainly didn't drive or handle as well.

now yor just talking complete sh*t

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Mango View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-October-2004 at 11:20

I'd like to add to that - apart from the implied logic that weight makes no difference to acceleration it's factually incorrect. I have just reveiwed the Brooklands Gold Portfolio plus several other publications to confirm that the Si is at least 0.5 and closer to 1 second slower.....

As for the 635 you have made an even bigger error - have you never read the comparative tests? They imply a relationship like the Golf GTi 1 has to the Golf GTi 3................

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-October-2004 at 11:57
Having owned and driven all three puts me in a
better position to speak with authority. How about
you? (personal experience, not pub talk).

The Si had the same 200 bhp as the CSL plus a
shorter final drive so, in the real world - and not a 30
year old road test - they're the same. One was a car
pretending to compete with Porsches and Aston
Martins and the other was a plain four door. We're
talking about the 3 litres cars by the way, not the
3.2's.
the E3 was a much better chassis than the E9,
more
wheel travel and a much stiffer shell. The standard
CS Coupe handles like a boat. The E9 shell had all
the structural rigitity of wet pasta which is why
virtually everyone around at the time commented that
the saloons handles better than the Coupes. It's a
fact backed up by the road tests you mentioned. The
CSL was better, but over stiff dampers and spring
used to ruin them. Cracks in the A pillars were the
result as the shell was so 'flexible'.

Road tests? Hmmmm.

"BMW 2800CS, a car of considerably less ability and
driver appeal that the saloon" (Car, 1976)

or:

"Still a fraction slower than the 3.0Si" 3.CSi test,
1972.

Or even:

"We still don't think this hybrid Coupe matches the
lesser BMW saloons on handling" 3.0CS, 1971.

Old road tests however don't tell you anything apart
from data and more pub talk.
Having had all of these over the years, the Si is a
better balanced and better handling car than a CS
Coupe, UK spec CSL included. So is an early
635CSi with the LSD which used a lot of the E9
chassis. They both feel less 'boaty' than the old E9
which started off as a Karmann bodge up (2800CS)
and ended up as quite a good car in the CSL.

But you can only get a balanced view after DRIVING
stuff like this. Oh, and the Mark 1 Golf GTi was a
heap of sh*t compared to the Mark 2. Skittish, noisy
and useless brakes. Had one of each (1982 1800
and a 1986 8v ) and bought a 2 litre Mark 3 - what a
mistake that was.

Edited by Andy Boy
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Mango View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-October-2004 at 12:52

Some authority...but it'd be immodest on a Sunday. Seriously I have driven the sixes (and the golfs) and own a csl hence the horror at your post......

So in essence we agree that the Si is cheating with that diff but even still the csl is faster off the line.....Yes I hear about chassis design etc and can only agree. There is no way the original sixes came near the csl off the line though surely - I'd really be interested if you could confirm?

Regards

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marc.lovell View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-October-2004 at 13:04

 How about
you? (personal experience, not pub talk).

Learned to drive in my Dads 3.0 si, owned a 635 csi for 6 years owned a porche 911 rsl (ex jct 6000 car) sold it 5 months ago, Aston martin DB5 owned 2, sold the last one last year, Jaguar e-types owned a 62 roadster, still own a 65 4.2 fhc, I have also owned 3 Maseratis, still own 2 MG`s (61 midget, 65 mgb roadster). Owned a number of Royces and Bentlys including Turbo R and Silver Spirit (still own 2, a shadow 2 and early 20/25 ). My first love has always been Lancia delta intergrale`s (still own a evo 2) nad have owned most lancias from Aurelias to Fulvias and STILL havent found any thing beter than a good 3.0 CSL.

I found the 3.0 si to be to soft at the back to press on in, the 635 to be to uncomunitive and un involving. The Astons to be to tireing, the RSL to be to twitchey the Maseratis to be fantastic but unreliable. The only car I have been able to do a 300 mile drive in and get out feeling like I dont need a bath is the Bentlys, Royces and the CSL.

I havent driven the evo 2 much and keep it locked away for my Son to drive when hes older (hes 4 now) but they are the only other car I would think about doing a cross country drive in with 2 adults and 2 children on board.

What are these Pub things you talk about ?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-October-2004 at 14:25
ooooh, Bitchy!!

The only Carrera I drove (Heavyweight I'm afraid) is
my Dad's blood red example (no decals), currently
with a 3.8 litre twin plug motor. Feels like a go kart
compared to any BMW I've owned.

Best handling BMW ever was the E30 M3. I had a
concours black Sport Evo 111 which I sold last year,
taking the orange CSL in p/x. Great handling but LHD
and too buzzy.
Modern M3's are nice though.

I too had an Integrale 16v, standard 1991 car. Nice,
found one day in a field, burned and missing wheels
and front end panels. :-(

Audi UR Quattro Turbo. I used one as a daily driver
for six months and loved it. I would probably buy
another one and it was only the early 10 valve type.

I never had an Aston Martin. I fancied a DB7 but was
told on good authority that they were garbage and
bought an 840Ci Sport instead. Likeable but not very
exciting and I ever only used it for overseas trips
where you could really use it. The only AM I'd like
would be an early four headlamp DBS V8, just
stunning to look at. Probably totally inept compared
to moderns but who cares?

3.0Si never had an LSD - only the early 2800
saloons with the Nivomat self levelling had a slipper.
Even so, for a boxy saloon to be that fast was
something else and a CSL would never get away
from it. Mine was a Tundra green metallic '72 K plate
and I replaced all the dampers with (standard) new
ones which transformed it. It was just great fun to
drive hard and really tail endy.

I liked my CSL. Just taking the car cover off it in the
barn and looking at it - it was one of those cars
although Inca or Golf are the best colours. Fjord blue
is my least favourite. A bit of a sheep in wolf's
clothing and an E30 M3 would hand it's *rse to it on a
silver platter - but I liked driving it nonetheless.

For the 635CSi, it must be the early one. With the
Bilsteins they used to ride a bit on the hard side but
they were just great and with the dogleg box they
went so hard. The E12 M535i was just as good
whereas the later stuff was all softened up.

E Type: I had to drive a 1969 FHC once and didn't
like it at all. I had a Mark 2 3.4 mod (a '60) which I
quite liked. It had a £30k resto in the early nineties
plus it had Konis and Wilwood calipers so the thing
would stop. I have somewhere a photo of it with the
3.0Si - weird because the last Mark 2 was built in
67/68 and the first E3 the same year.

Never owned an Italian supercar - I hate pushing.

Rolls Royce - I'm neither a Gypo or an entertainer.
Only a very early Shadow 1 Mulliner Park Ward or
James Young 2 door (Corniche) Coupe would do the
trick. I hate the later stuff with venom, mainly
because all the scrap dealers I know drive them!
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Jonners View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-November-2004 at 11:31
i've had a couple of fiat unos and a talbot alpine - all quite good but the alpine was best off the line

still can't beat the old 105E tho for those continental raids

and it would easily beat any bmw 6 cylinder off the line over the first 30 yards in reverse

am talking from experience here...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-November-2004 at 16:58
Originally posted by Jonners Jonners wrote:

i've had a talbot alpine
am talking from experience here...


YOU TOO!! I had one years ago, a LHD red one. It
was badged as a Simca 1301, about an R or S reg. It
was the super luxury 1.5 with electric front windows

Well, coming from a 1967 Mini 1000 it was good.
You could hear the tappets in the next village and
hear it rust at night. The handling balance wasn't
quite as crisp as the Horizon though.......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-November-2004 at 06:43
hmmm - content to allow you to lord it over me on this one...mine was an early facelift 1.5 GL 4 speed....god was that car a heap of toilet...did about 40k in it, sounded like a diesel and when it went to the scrappie the o/s rear tyre had PRECISELY the same amount of tread as when i bought it - having said that it was a very perished rock hard kwik fit remould....

as for horizons, i borrowed one once from a mate for an emergency dash down the m62 - welded the peddle to the floor and swore all the way because it was so slow....unfortunately i managed to shag the poor thing to within an inch of its miserable life because i had left it in third - didn't seem any noisier than the Alpine....

best drive ever??? Mk1 'Tina 1500 with drum brakes in 'quick convoy' with a mate's 1275 GT over snake pass - best test track in the land

nowadays, preoccupied with service histories, resale, stone chips etc etc....

gonna search autotrader for an alpine lynx - there's a sleeper for you....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-November-2004 at 12:03
I had a 1275GT as well........LHK 497J, red with black
vinyl roof, white lower body stripes and Hydrolastic
suspension plus Rostyle wheels. What a Gem that
was after a Cooper S 1275 (Not).

Originally posted by Jonners
<br />
<br />gonna search autotrader for an alpine lynx - there's a 
<br />sleeper for you....[/QUOTE Jonners

gonna search autotrader for an alpine lynx - there's a
sleeper for you....[/QUOTE wrote:




I favour the Solara Rapier limited edition myself, a
persuasive mix of style, performan


I favour the Solara Rapier limited edition myself, a
persuasive mix of style, performance and kwaalitee.

That or a Tagora.
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Jonners View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-November-2004 at 13:34
nah mate - c'mon - whaddabout the Samba Rallye??

marvellous motor, completely indestuctible...and soo rare..or the sunbeam ti - a real performance motor...

i learn't to drive in a solara - probably explains my gear changing technique and love of porridge...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-November-2004 at 17:10
Sorry, but I've got a soft spot for French cars. I had a
Renault 8 Gordini (MML 86C) which was a fast little
bugger. 108 bhp standard, but this one had a Alpine
Renault A110 motor.

Peugeot 604, the best riding car in the world, ever.
Followed by the Renault 20.

Ren. 5 Maxi Turbo - got to have one of these one day.

Citroen DS19 - it's fifty years old in a few months
time.

Citroen SM. I wish I was brave enough.

Renault Clio 16v Williams. This was a classic the
day it was built. New Mini Cooper / S? You must be
joking.

On another note....a photographer friend of mine
bought a 100'000 mile Citroen XM and ran it up to
200'000 miles without a problem. It's sort of
fashionable to knock French cars, but you're more
likely to see a rusty BMW. They ain't all bad!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-November-2004 at 17:38

I must confess to once owning a renault 4 van, 1976 vintage i think. My mate purchased it for his wife for a run around and she took one look at it and said there was no bloody way she was driving that thing. I said it looked almost new (it was in realy good nick) she said she would look like a french peasent (looking french would be bad enougth) and would have to wear a stripy jumper and start selling onions. The up shot is he was that *issed with her he sold it to me for £10 (including 12 months tax and he had just paid £600 for it !!!!

I took it away half exspecting him to come and get it later, he never did and decided teaching his wife a lesson was worth the cash. I had it for 4 years did over 70 k miles in it and spent not 1 penny on it (exsept tax, mot , insureance) didnt even change the oil..........

It bit the dust one cold december morn loaded to the back doors with sand, about 1/2 a ton if i remember when the engine decided it no longer wanted to be conected to the engine bay. As I was unloading it the lift up top bit of the rear roof (above the doors) decided it was a good idea to blow shut and as it did it craked me full swing on the head. I picked my self up of the floor it had knocked me clean out and spent the the next 2 days in hospital with a fractured skull. this is not quite the end........

While i was in hospital i sold the van to the chap in the next bed for £25. Made a nice little profit.

my longest post ever, if i could find a nice renault 4 car i could be tempted,  i think it would make a fab runaround.

marc

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-November-2004 at 17:52
Originally posted by marc.lovell marc.lovell wrote:

....if i could find a nice renault 4 car i could be tempted,  i think it would make a fab runaround.



There you go:



Now, go fetch

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-November-2004 at 15:30

Mango

In case you are not on the clubs CSL owners list you will not have received the questionaire recently sent out, please let me know if not by private message and I will forward to you.

But next year we have pencilled in Monday 3rd October for a CSL extravaganza with some genuine group 2 Batmobiles due out to play... 

richard
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-November-2004 at 18:05

Have really enjoyed this discussion,brought back many memories ofsome of the cars we have in common must agree with some of the comments on the joy of driving e9's and the CSL particularly.

Regards

Dax

Dax Klynsmith
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