hallmark 633

"All the sellers seemed to think they had mint
examples worthy of the highest price".


Yes, there are lots of doggy ones - you have to look
for good ones and for ten grand you will find
something nice. A colleague of mine bought a one
owner 500SL from 1984, 65'000 miles with history
and in proper condition for �6500. Trouble was, it
was a foul pinky white - but it was an honest original
unrusty car. The colour killed it sadly and he
struggled to sell it on again.


"Also, you may not like the Stag but plenty of people
do - that's why it's prices are so firm".

Well, there's one born every minute. Never
overestimate the intelligence of the general public.
The Stag was a piece of rubbish in 1970, but like all
the other nasty British landfill, it's one of the first cars
muppets think off when you mention 'lovely shiny
classic car'. The fact that it wasn't much good when it
was new (and they were absolute garbage) is of little
consequence. An American friend of mine had a new
one in '73 and it was completely useless, never
ending drama and aggro with 2 engines and 2
autoboxes in the space of a year. Hmm, a real
classic.
But apparently it did look good on the hard shoulder
once the steam had died down.

Andy Boy wrote: The Stag was a piece of rubbish in 1970, but like all the other nasty British landfill.....and they were absolute garbage

Such vehemence towards the poor Stag! Did you have an embarrassing experience in one? 

Yes the Stag had build quality problems � just like every other British built car at the time but then so did the French & Italians.  I actually wrote a thesis on BL in the mid 70�s and had to research the subject quite closely.

Initially the Stag was supposed to have the Rover (nee Buick) V8 but a combination of internal politics (Rover vs Triumph) & shortage of  engines meant Triumph had to come up with an alternative quickly. Their solution was to mate two Dolly Sprint engines together to produce a V8, a process used by many manufacturers. On paper a SOHC 3.0litre V8 was good but lack of time & funds for development pushed it into production too quickly.

The majority of problems surrounding the Stags engine can be traced to poor maintenance of  a marginal cooling system.  Ironically, the same problem reared it�s head at BMW a decade later and for the same reason.

Rust was a problem for all cars (including BMW). Remember, it was 35 years ago. The fact that a higher proportion of Stags have survived than CS coupes says something about their status and desirability.  Of course, all those "muppets" who've bought a Stag could be wrong & Andy Boy is right but I doubt it. I think I know who the muppet is.

Strangely, of all the cars built in the 70�s the miserable Allegro has proved able to withstand the rust bug better than most! Maybe it was out of spite!

Ha ha,  good one !  Now get an Allegro front end on the Touring!

The problems the Stag had were nothing to do with
poor maintenance - the troubles were occurring
when these cars were new. The Stag came first and
the Dolomite 1850 appeared two years later. The
only things they really shared was one cylinder head.
But anyway.......

The Stag engine was fatally flawed due to the crazy
design of the cylinder head studs where the top set
went in as normal and the lower ones went in.....AT
AN ANGLE!!! Can you believe that? If Triumph tried to
design a bike, it would probably have square
wheels. Angled head studs CANNOT exert the same
clamping force as a proper one, fact. That'll be a
blown head gasket or two then.

The timing chain. This was the crappiest quality
chain BL could find and they need replacing after just
30'000 miles. Brilliant. On my friend's car, the
tensioner came loose and the engine destroyed
itself as the chain jumped several teeth. (first
engine)

The distributor. Made by Lucas so assured of quality
then. It was a copy of the Rolls Royce V8 unit but cost
about 2 shillings to make. The points used to play up
plus the bob weights would jam on full advance.
This would blow the engine up because the timing
was dramatically over advanced.

The cooling system. The expansion bottle, for some
incredible reason, was actually mounted BELOW the
level of the coolant in the engine. Let's siphon all the
coolant out of the engine and into this bottle then,
causing an air lock. Fantastic, inspired design. You
try getting rid of the air locks and topping up the
cooling system after it's spat it all out on the M4. Plus
of course the water pump which, like the Dolomite,
sits on top of the engine and is driven by the
jackshaft (oil pump I think). If it wasn't shimmed
perfectly, it would either cavitate the water or not do
anything.


No, the Stag really was a masterpiece and I'm gutted
I don't own one. Also, there were 20'000 (?) Stags
built and unlike other Triumphs they were not
exported to the USA so most of them stayed here,
worst luck. I think about 3000 CS Coupes were
imported in total and yes, they were a rusty old crock
as well and far worse for rust than a Stag. But at
least it was a genuinely nice car when it was new.
The Yanks would have taken one look at that crap V8
and just laughed. With a Rover unit it could have
been very good of course. Never mind.

The Allegro? Now that's vicous!! But the story of BL is
fascinating and very sad; under investment in the
sixties and a blind faith in Issigonis, a series of truly
rubbish cars in the seventies, Derek Robinson,
Edwardes.......an idea for a TV Drama?

AndyS wrote: Saab used the Dolomite engine in the 99 & it took them quite a while to iron out the problems.

Did they? didn't know that. I thought the 2 litre engine in the 99 was a Saab's own engine. I know the engine in the 96 was a Triumph V4 IIRC, after that I thought they designed and built their own.

I may be wrong, will have to read up on it. (my dad is a big Saab fan, and has had a 96, a 99L, a 900GLS and is currently on his 2nd, a 900i (old shape, not the General Motors one)

Horsetan wrote: Rhys wrote: ... I know the engine in the 96 was a Triumph V4 IIRC, after that I thought they designed and built their own.... Triumph V4??? Thought it was a Ford V4.....

I stand corrected


"The Ford 1,498cc V4 engine delivered 65hp aat 4,700rpm and saw 100kph from rest in just 16 seconds. The unit was capable of 155kph although Saab factory technicians recommended a maximum cruising speed of 140kph."

Taken from here.

..and indeed the engine from the 99 was from Triumph.
Saab 99.

You live and learn.

Edited by Rhys

The SAAB engineers got cheesed off with the Triumph engine and re-engineered quite a lot of it. Some time in 900 series production they came out with their own 16v DOHC 2000cc engine, and this was an undoubted improvement. How much of the Triumph design was carried over I don't know, but the 16v SAAB lump (although basically strong) also has an unhealthy appetite for head gaskets (although not in turbo form so much, strangely); SAAB dealers hold extensive stocks of gaskets, and the parts guy will know the number off by heart...

Stags were 'quite nice' in their day but the camchains were rubbish, as were the cylinder head studs, and a few other little gems. A chum of mine has one, and although it looks OK at a few paces substantial amounts of the bodywork are now repair sections of various kinds. Other 'novel' design features include aluminium wheel nuts, guaranteed never to loosen accidentally as they corrode into place within minutes.

Rust was designed in to the Stag; I gather that, just to make sure it set in well, bare metal bodies had to be transferred across the road from one shop to another. Since they wouldn't fit through the underpass that was constucted for the purpose, they were driven by road, on open topped lorries, in all weathers.

Still, you'd be hard-pushed to find a more pleasant vehicle for bimbling around the lanes in on a summer's day.

cheers

 

 what you want is a e12 520 top car, its got to be an auto or a e23 better car... hi andy hows things mate...

Edited by robs e23

Oh No, it's the Doom Crew come back to haunt me!!
How's it going Lads? I trust I'm being
Royally chastised on the new 7 Series forum?

Early 520? Firstly, they've all rusted away, secondly,
they aren't making any more.....

 just winding you up mate, subject is now dropped.