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Revy320 
Groupie 
Joined: 02-February-2005 Location: West Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 75 |
 Posted: 22-February-2005 at 16:58 |
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Hello lads. Nick is right. Don't waste money on snow chains for this country. The snow isn't usually deep enough or lasts long enough to warrant them. Also, if it gets really bad, you usually get stuck behind vehicles that haven't got chains, so there's nowhere to go anyway. Best bet is to slow down and be smooth as advised. Triple the distance between you and the car in front. If you do lots of winter miles, a pair of winter tyres is a sensible and sound investment. Good luck and stay safe.
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Dave
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Globulator
Groupie
Joined: 28-December-2004 Location: Cambridge, UK Status: Offline Points: 53 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 16:23 |
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I had an old MG Midget, fat 165 tyres! All the
weaknesses (no brakes, no power, rubbish suspension) became irrelevant on snow, and the top-down meant huge all round visibility. Heater was good ;) With enough practice I was usually heading for the hilly, snow covered roads and estates, car parks etc. because once you get used to how it handles, slides and behaves in the snow;- there are no surprises. It's not like hitting a patch of ice - the snow is fairly consistent with grip and you can drive in full control with most of the wheels constantly sliding. Of course there was no electronics to blur the controls - you were very close to the road (quite literally in fact!). ABS can be a menace in ice sometimes. You can then do the 'impossible' - gently slither down a snow filled road and miss all the parked cars - people stare and gawp but as I say: practice builds control. I'd highly recommend you find a safe, pedestrian free area with heaps of run-off and have a go. Dab the brakes to see when they lock the wheels, twiddle the steering to see how much lateral grip you've got, power slide smoothly and confidently round corners. It's all about using the small amount of grip you have (and it IS there) by reducing the loading force (cornering, accelerating, lifting off, braking). Speed is not really relevant here (although because the the grip everything shrinks in size!) - but gentleness is. Like racing drivers, if you keep everything smooth and keep checking the grip limits - sudden moves (i.e. panic) break traction, shift weight and get you into a whole load of trouble if you haven't done it deliberately on a safe bit of land first and know exactly what to expect... Then when you need to do the right thing - you will do the right thing. I need practice too - I haven't had the midget for ages and ages, and snow just aint what it used to be. Maybe I should book into a skid-pan for a refresher ;) 
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Nick DE
Senior Member I 
Joined: 10-February-2005 Location: Rhein-Neckar-Kreis Status: Offline Points: 103 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 15:46 |
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Snowchains won't help until you're measuring the snow in inches. You need more grip on cold, wet, possibly icy roads. Your big fat summer tyres were never designed for those kinds of conditions. Or buy a sledge. At least they usually slide in one direction rather than 360 degrees ! And cost less when they hit a tree sideways... |
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Go Darkness
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sil328
Newbie
Joined: 20-February-2005 Location: Leytonstone Status: Offline Points: 13 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 15:20 |
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I think maybe snowchains are the answer for me, as I don't do that many
miles and was only caught out this time because blizzards were not
forecasted. Next time snow is forecast I will stay at home!
Nick - what are these 'Better driving' days and where are they? Sounds interesting..... The tyres and general road set up of the car is fine on dry roads - the usual good handling on B roads - so I don't think there is an inherent problem. I would say to Neileg that once you hit a slide like I was in there is pretty much nothing you can do - the car was heading for the other side of the road and there was nothing I could do about it! That was the scary thing. It was a slow slide and yet whatever I tried (steering, brakes) made no difference. I was just lucky I was not going too fast. |
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therealmccoy
Really Senior Member II 
Joined: 27-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 552 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 14:54 |
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Whatever you do, don't do what some fool in a Chelsea Tractor did today...
There was a light covering of snow, so the moron put snow chains on!!!! The result was a nasty Shogun sparking as it went up the road - until a couple of tyres went!! HAHAHA! |
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Work Harder! A Million Benefit Claimants Depend On YOU!
E30 M3, The REAL McCoy! 89 M3 Now Sold 99 323i *FOR SALE* PC Probs?? Click here! |
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Nick DE
Senior Member I
Joined: 10-February-2005 Location: Rhein-Neckar-Kreis Status: Offline Points: 103 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 14:03 |
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Carl is right, winter tyres are the answer. Here in Germany nearly everyone runs winter tyres from late Nov to Early March - it's not actually law except for on snow covered roads but just makes sense, particularly on larger, powerful, fast cars. I think the BMW engineers who designed your car would be very surprised to find you driving it on snow covered roads at all on summer tyres. Tyre design is a matter of compromise. Summer tyres are designed for warm and dry roads, and can cope with some rain. Winter tyres are designed for cold (less than 7 degrees C), wet, ice and snow. They are thinner (most people switch to steel wheels two sizes smaller - eg 215 to 195, with big tyres maybe four sizes smaller), have different profiles/tread with more grooves and edges, and most importantly are made of a softer compound. Summer tyres get too hard in cold conditions. The disadvantage of winter tyres is they are usually a bit noisier and use more petrol. I had never used winter tyres before moving to Germany, but having experienced how much more grip you get, not only on snow, but also on cold wet mornings, I only use winter tyres on all our cars from Nov to Mar. Plus I keep snowchains in the boot for when things get really nasty |
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Go Darkness
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coupe king
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 23-November-2003 Location: Aber’bloody’deen Status: Offline Points: 2295 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 13:54 |
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One of the best all round tyres is uniroyal rainsports, they are sort of an all year round tyre and gets fair ratings in the snow too.
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snapon
Groupie
Joined: 11-November-2004 Location: Banstead Surrey Status: Offline Points: 42 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 13:40 |
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Snap! mines a 328i tourer 99 and in snow its as much use as a husky dog in the sahara! The trouble is the tyre width is not designed for snow/ice and just aquaplanes at the slightest touch of the brakes .Best thing to do is go down to your local snow/hiking shop and buy some clampons or cheaper still get the bus!
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Just Touring....
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor 
Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 10:04 |
No disrespect intended Neil, but I think your mad Overtaking in the snow! The trouble is even if you know how to handle a skid there's seldom room on a busy road to do it safely, especially since a bit of snow tends to make the traffic more dense. Being able to catch an oversteering car is fine but if the roads very busy you still stand a chance of hitting someone. If your doing anything over about 30 on snow and you loose it you are really going to struggle to get the car back while staying between the lines. IMO the best way is to drive very slowly and avoid skidding as much as possible. Unless of course the road is empty, then you can have some fun!! |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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neileg
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 20-July-2004 Location: Northumberland Status: Offline Points: 638 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 08:12 |
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I drove from Northumberland to Heathrow and back, yesterday, in my 318is. It also has 225 tyres and enough power to break traction even in slight damp. I don't have traction control. I also have a set of budget tyres (Eurotour, £65 a corner). Despite the weather being atrocious, I had absolutely no problems, even overtaking lorries on the snow covered A1(M). I make sure that whenever we get a fall of snow, I find an empty car park and remind myself how to handle the car in a skid in the snow. |
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Cheers, Neil
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Nick
Bavarian-Board Contributor
BMWCC Area Organiser Yorks & Humber Joined: 21-October-2002 Location: God’s own county... Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1319 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 05:13 |
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I would suspect that it is the road conditions that have cought you out rather than the car being at fault.
However, too much rear wheel braking is a bad thing and the bias on your car could be wrong.. the MOT tester would have picked up on that one though.. but it may be worth checking when the roads are safe to try it that the rear wheels are not locking up. Whats your car like on dry roads? Is it good to drive? can you keep up a good pace on a winding B road... if so then there is nothing much wrong with the cars set up. My guess is that it is over tyred.. and you need to take this into account when conditions are poor. Some on the limit training may be in order here.. get booked in on one of our Better driving days and take advantage of the free instruction.. you will learn a lot about your vehicle. |
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bmw325tds
Really Senior Member I 
Joined: 05-February-2005 Status: Offline Points: 361 |
Posted: 22-February-2005 at 04:03 |
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An easy bit of advice if you think your car is skittery in the snow: Buy a second set of wheels and put winter tyres on. Eagle F1's are good in the dry, and okay in the wet, but like most other Summer tyres, will be rubish in the snow! In Germany, it is law to have a set of winter wheels and tyres for just that reason. It's also a good idea from a saving your alloys from the salt point of view! |
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Carl
Ford Focus 1.8TDdi Estate Ford Focus 1.8TDdi Porsche 944 Turbo BM's gone, but maybe only temporary! |
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scarface
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 16-June-2004 Location: Surrey, UK Status: Offline Points: 414 |
Posted: 21-February-2005 at 15:53 |
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It's been a while since I had a dicey moment, with the weather as it
is, looks like I'm due for another one. I'll pay more attention
to what's going on and let you know.
 Damn, reckon I just jinxed myself..
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sil328
Newbie
Joined: 20-February-2005 Location: Leytonstone Status: Offline Points: 13 |
Posted: 21-February-2005 at 13:54 |
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It was of course Sod's Law that every journey I have previously taken
up to Norfolk, the boot has been packed to the gunnels, but on this one
occasion where I needed some weight in there, the boot was empty! I
will know next time to tell the family to jump into the luggage area
(328i Touring) next time it starts to snow!
Phillip - thanks for the thought on low steering fluid - it did feel as though I had no steering as soon as the slide had begun but I think this was just the snow! I'll have it checked though. Scarface says " I have the same thing in the snow, even the slightest covering and my car is fine one minute and all over the place the next, while FWD cars look at me like I'm a nutter. I agree that the grinding is probably ABS/ASC control cutting in as it does go beserk". This does sound to me the most likely scenario, as it was certainly going beserk as I tried to scrabble out of the slushy verge. Is it really supposed to make that much noise though? It seems very un-BMW like... |
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Phillip
Senior Member I
Joined: 16-August-2004 Location: Nantwich, Cheshire Status: Offline Points: 100 |
Posted: 21-February-2005 at 03:25 |
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My old car, a E39 520 Auto, made intermittant grinding noises when turning. It was low steering fluid as the pipes were leaking. I know it shouldnt affect the handling but I just thought you may have had a loss of power to the steering which affected it after a slide began??
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Philip
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Doive
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 09-February-2005 Location: Clinging to a turbine, Hexham Status: Offline Points: 1212 |
Posted: 20-February-2005 at 20:22 |
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That was an Irish one, the van fell into the harbour and was lifted out
by the red lorry, which fell in on top of it. Then the big green Scania
turned up that lifted both the car and the lorry out. There is a set of
photos going around at the moment where someone has photoshopped the
green lorry falling in as well, funny but not actually what happened.
As for the snow, it happens to FWD cars too. My dad used to have a mk4 astra on 205 R16 tyres and it would just be all over the place in the snow, no grip and throwing the back end at every opportunity. Meanwhile my astra on 165 R14's just kept on gripping and going, so for the winter it is actually worthwhile investing in a set of steels with narrow tyres. |
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1987 BMW 525e Lux Auto (sadly deceased)
Get Firefox - Ditch Hopeless Inertnet Exploder www.doive.co.uk 
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Praktisk
Really Senior Member II
"Wanna buy some pegs Dave?" Joined: 06-June-2004 Location: Royston Vasey - Are U Local? Status: Offline Points: 845 |
Posted: 20-February-2005 at 19:18 |
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Reminds me of the picture of the hiab-truck lifting a car out of the sea from a pier, it tipples over, they have to get a bigger crane, that does the same, so an even bigger crane is needed. If anyones got the picture, please post it ... for those of you who havent the foggiest idea of what im talking about ... sorry, but if you saw it you'd understand. Im sure it was Irish too |
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"Only The Tyres Are Allowed To Smoke!" -- 2001 330ci Sport (man) - "Oh This Is a Saga Now!" -- E46 Section Remote CCTV Solutions |
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scarface
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 16-June-2004 Location: Surrey, UK Status: Offline Points: 414 |
Posted: 20-February-2005 at 18:54 |
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I have the same thing in the snow, even the slightest covering and my
car is fine one minute and all over the place the next, while FWD cars
look at me like I'm a nutter. I agree that the grinding is
probably ABS/ASC control cutting in as it does go beserk.
I'm not looking forward to the forecasted snow, I think I'll be taking some extra weight in the boot It seems that heavier RWD cars aren't so bad in the snow, maybe it's down to the power/weight ratio. |
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Phantom_Mark
Senior Member II 
Joined: 21-September-2004 Location: Lincoln UK Status: Offline Points: 194 |
Posted: 20-February-2005 at 18:32 |
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The idea of ABS is that you can give full brakes without locking the wheels thus full brake and steer at the same time, be wary tho as another thing which can cause a car to slide is weight transfer, even on a car with ABS you will still get the effects of the pendulem when you slam on the brakes say mid corner for example, this alone "could" induce the **** end to start sliding, simple rule of thumb, never rely on the ABS, always revert to it when you really have no other choice and about to die or crash Its entirely possible that maybe your rear wheel sensors for the braking /ABS system "could" be dirty or not working correct causing an abnormal amount of rear brake bias ?, im not a mechanic tho so just a theory ;) Mark. |
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<<<<< The only way is up >>>>
( unless your in a 5 series, then sideways is cool too ) 
91' 525 24v Sport, Stainless Race Manifolds, PowerFlo Stainless + Decat, Big Bore Throttle Body, Viper 2 Chip + 17's, std BMW Air Filter :D |
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sil328
Newbie
Joined: 20-February-2005 Location: Leytonstone Status: Offline Points: 13 |
Posted: 20-February-2005 at 18:09 |
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All, thank you for your comments. I don't think the grinding noise
could have been the anti-lock as I was not braking when it was making
the noise. As I skidded across the road, I did make a conscious effort
not to slam on the brakes as I knew this would reduce my ability to
steer, although it didn't make the steering any easier - the car seemed
to have a mind of its own and was not going to be distracted from its
progress across the road and onto the grass on the other side. However,
the noise was at its worst when I was trying to manoevre out of the
verge on the wrong side of the road, where the snow-covered grass was
slippy, so is this where the traction control might have been trying to
kick in? Maybe this was causing the noise....
Actually the AA van that arrived parked up behind me on the verge, then couldn't get out and had to call another recovery truck to pull him out! So you can see that conditions were not good at all. I appreciate that RWD cars are different to FWD, but my last car was a BMW as well (10 years of BMW driving now!) and I never had any problems with it in adverse conditions. The tyres still have loads of tread but when I bought the F1s I didn't think about snow - grip on wet and dry roads was rated as good but snow wasn't mentioned! Good point about the skinny tyres on the Fiesta, Peter H - that was not a very good analogy of mine! I am just worried now that if I can be driving in a straight line in slippy conditions and the slightest touch of the brakes causes the car to veer into oncoming traffic, is it safe to drive? In hindsight maybe 40mph was a bit too quick but I was in a line of traffic and everyone felt safe at that speed (except me when the accident happened!), as the snow was light at that time and only just starting to settle. If the noise was the traction control I could get that looked at, I suppose, but as for the cause of the skid, maybe the answer is just to never drive in snow, but should I really have to say this? I've seen the adverts showing the Jag driving up a ski slope, and was hoping the BMW could at least handle a few flakes! |
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328i sliding off road
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neileg wrote:
<gets flameproof suit ready>