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sil328 
Newbie
Joined: 20-February-2005
Location: Leytonstone
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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 Posted: 22-February-2005 at 15:20 |
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I think maybe snowchains are the answer for me, as I don't do that many
miles and was only caught out this time because blizzards were not
forecasted. Next time snow is forecast I will stay at home!
Nick - what are these 'Better driving' days and where are they? Sounds interesting.....
The tyres and general road set up of the car is fine on dry roads - the
usual good handling on B roads - so I don't think there is an inherent
problem.
I would say to Neileg that once you hit a slide like I was in there is
pretty much nothing you can do - the car was heading for the other side
of the road and there was nothing I could do about it! That was the
scary thing. It was a slow slide and yet whatever I tried (steering,
brakes) made no difference. I was just lucky I was not going too fast.
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Nick DE
Senior Member I
Joined: 10-February-2005
Location: Rhein-Neckar-Kreis
Status: Offline
Points: 103
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Posted: 22-February-2005 at 15:46 |
Snowchains won't help until you're measuring the snow in inches. You need more grip on cold, wet, possibly icy roads. Your big fat summer tyres were never designed for those kinds of conditions.
Or buy a sledge. At least they usually slide in one direction rather than 360 degrees ! And cost less when they hit a tree sideways...
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Go Darkness
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Globulator
Groupie
Joined: 28-December-2004
Location: Cambridge, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 53
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Posted: 22-February-2005 at 16:23 |
I had an old MG Midget, fat 165 tyres! All the
weaknesses (no brakes, no power, rubbish suspension)
became irrelevant on snow, and the top-down meant huge
all round visibility. Heater was good ;)
With enough practice I was usually heading for the
hilly, snow covered roads and estates, car parks etc.
because once you get used to how it handles, slides and
behaves in the snow;- there are no surprises. It's not
like hitting a patch of ice - the snow is fairly
consistent with grip and you can drive in full control
with most of the wheels constantly sliding.
Of course there was no electronics to blur the controls
- you were very close to the road (quite literally in
fact!). ABS can be a menace in ice sometimes.
You can then do the 'impossible' - gently slither down a
snow filled road and miss all the parked cars - people
stare and gawp but as I say: practice builds control.
I'd highly recommend you find a safe, pedestrian free
area with heaps of run-off and have a go. Dab the brakes
to see when they lock the wheels, twiddle the steering
to see how much lateral grip you've got, power slide
smoothly and confidently round corners. It's all about
using the small amount of grip you have (and it IS
there) by reducing the loading force (cornering,
accelerating, lifting off, braking). Speed is not really
relevant here (although because the the grip everything
shrinks in size!) - but gentleness is.
Like racing drivers, if you keep everything smooth and
keep checking the grip limits - sudden moves (i.e.
panic) break traction, shift weight and get you into a
whole load of trouble if you haven't done it
deliberately on a safe bit of land first and know
exactly what to expect...
Then when you need to do the right thing - you will do
the right thing. I need practice too - I haven't had the
midget for ages and ages, and snow just aint what it
used to be. Maybe I should book into a skid-pan for a
refresher ;) 
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Revy320
Groupie
Joined: 02-February-2005
Location: West Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 75
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Posted: 22-February-2005 at 16:58 |
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Hello lads. Nick is right. Don't waste money on snow chains for this country. The snow isn't usually deep enough or lasts long enough to warrant them. Also, if it gets really bad, you usually get stuck behind vehicles that haven't got chains, so there's nowhere to go anyway. Best bet is to slow down and be smooth as advised. Triple the distance between you and the car in front. If you do lots of winter miles, a pair of winter tyres is a sensible and sound investment. Good luck and stay safe.
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Dave
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II
The Last of the Few
Joined: 21-August-2003
Location: 55 � North
Status: Offline
Points: 1365
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Posted: 22-February-2005 at 18:37 |
Well you live & learn.
When I learnt to drive there were more rear wheel drive cars around the fwd. You learnt to read the road & in bad conditions take it slow - even when driving a 72bhp Mk1 Escort Sport.
Face it, you ain't Colin McRae. Once you've hit the slide it's to late. BMW325TDS has the best advice to maximise your grip but excess speed still = accident.
My brother's a traffic cop with over 15years experience + he trains new traffic cops - I won't tell you what he called you!!!
In bad conditions, if you think you're going fast enough - slow down!
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AndyS Live each day as if it's your last - one day it will be. 
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Globulator
Groupie
Joined: 28-December-2004
Location: Cambridge, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 53
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Posted: 22-February-2005 at 19:15 |
 AndyS wrote:
When I learnt to drive there were more rear
wheel drive cars around the fwd. |
I think you've got something there, you can get away
with murder in a decent fwd car (the pug 406 can
literally be thrown into roundabouts), getting the back
ever to swing round is almost impossible (handbrake
excepted). The worst you get is gentle understeer.
Even tyre places now fit the new tyres to the back of
fwd cars, because no one has ever had the back move out
these days. I guess locking the front wheels of a RWD is
easier too.
In the 'good 'ole' days the back stepping out was just
one of those things, fishtailing could be fun and
generally keeping the foot planted (occasionally giving
up and putting in the clutch!!) was the way to go...
Maybe that's why the E30 is so much fun, with a limited
slip diff the stability is helped enormously and you've
got a decent engine keeping it all real too ;)
Before I had 165s fitted on the back of my midget I had
145s, one rear tyre of which had ballooned out (unoticed
by everyone) so for the first few months of driving I
just assumed the back was supposed to be all over the
place ;)
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Globulator
E30 Red 325i Cabriolet - 1986
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neileg
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 20-July-2004
Location: Northumberland
Status: Offline
Points: 638
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Posted: 23-February-2005 at 08:04 |
Paul, I'm not that mad! Although there was snow on the road, there were also clear ruts that HGVs had created. I was driving in those.
sil328, I agree that once you're in a slide, you need lots of road, lots of skill and lots of luck to get it back. The point I was illustrating is that I prefer to know how far I can go before a slide starts. Different cars give you different signals and if you ignore these you get into trouble. The start of this thread was about a slide without warning. I acknowledge that some cars are very bad at signalling what's happening but I want to know what these signals are so that when I get them, I don't ignore them.
I've been driving for over 30 years and I've not so far had an accident in bad weather. This may well be luck, and I don't think I'm fireproof. Equally, I invest time every year, reminding myself what to do when a skid starts and how to stop it becoming a slide. Because the right action can be counter-intuitive, and because I've driven loads of different cars, I need to be re-educated on a regular basis.
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Cheers, Neil
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Nick
Bavarian-Board Contributor
BMWCC Area Organiser Yorks & Humber
Joined: 21-October-2002
Location: God’s own county... Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 1319
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Posted: 23-February-2005 at 08:37 |
sil328 wrote:
Nick - what are these 'Better driving' days and where are they? Sounds interesting.....
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Basically Trackdays.. but without the gung ho attitude of some operators.
Its the opportunity to explore you and your cars limits within a safe and contolled environment. We have dedicated instructors and they are BMW Car Club run for the benefit of members only. We cater for novices and race drivers.
There is a Driving Day forum on this site.
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B 7 VP
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 04-November-2003
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1115
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Posted: 23-February-2005 at 09:41 |
sil328--- some good advice given on your prob.
This time of year road surfaces, have got so much gunge on them, filling up the abrasive edges of the normal sharp surfaces , No rain to clean them out and they are polished.Mix in Diesel spillage which the Police say, is getting worse ALL the time and is widespread, and you have a lethal mix for disaster--You found it , do did hundreds of others.
I think you need to check out the noise, when you went out of control without warning---MUST be a reason.???
The biggest, easiest & cheapest help you can get is 2 x 25Kg bags of shingle in the luggage area.Amazing how it improves road holding. I had a CSL and a 3-0si which were a bit lively in the wet, in particular on my drives up the A1 in all conditions for a few years, you know about lorry traffic on this route, and slippy surfaces.No probs.
The easiest start to your Skidpan lesson, is to find a wet grass area, no speed req-just turn and power on and keep momentum going.
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SAFETYFAST
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Nick DE
Senior Member I
Joined: 10-February-2005
Location: Rhein-Neckar-Kreis
Status: Offline
Points: 103
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Posted: 23-February-2005 at 12:31 |
The grip the tyres have in bad conditions depends on the weight per surface area you have in contact. Increasing the weight over the wheel using shingle, cement, relatives etc increases the grip. It also increases the total weight of the car, increasing it's momentum and kinetic energy which just makes the whole problem of controlling the car with low grip even worse. BMW only say weight in the boot helps to get a car moving, not to control a moving car.
Decreasing the tyre size also increases the weight per surface area giving more without increasing the total momentum - that's why winter tyres are smaller than summer tyres.
Has anyone ever seen Colin McRae's support team chucking bags in the boot, or do they spent hours analysing weather reports, road conditions and then choosing tyres of the right size, profile and compound ? You can do much the same by investing in a set of M+S tyres - have a look in the tyre spec section of the user manual.
Judging by the BBC Weather web pages you guys are in for a bit of practice ! Whatever method you choose (skill, weight, tyres, abstinence) I wish you all safe journeys.
Nick
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Go Darkness
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sil328
Newbie
Joined: 20-February-2005
Location: Leytonstone
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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Posted: 23-February-2005 at 18:10 |
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Nicely summed up, Nick DE! I think general advice would be that a bit
of weight in the boot is sensible in icy conditions, but I will go for
abstinence as first choice!
I will get the noise checked out, but am not convinced that my BMW
dealer will find anything. When I first got the car the handling was
atrocious, so I took it in to be looked at. The dealer charged me over
£100 for telling me that there was nothing they could find wrong with
the car. A few months later I took it to the same garage for its major
inspection, and lo and behold, it emerged a different car and the
handling was now what I would have expected from a BMW. So clearly
whatever they did during its service fixed the problem that they
originally said did not exist! I had a bad experience at the only other
BMW dealer in the area, so I am a bit stuck for choice.
If anyone knows of a good independent BMW specialist garage in the East
London area which they could recommend, it would be much appreciated.
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B 7 VP
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 04-November-2003
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1115
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Posted: 23-February-2005 at 19:19 |
Hi Nick DE, Your advice is welcome, as is BMW AG,s Tech" Like It Is--" Our problem is UK road Surfaces,If they were ALL like your Rhein-Neckar-Kries area,s with our Suspensions set up For Your Road surfaces, we maybe dont have a problem.BUT--- due to OUR ****z UK roads, The AG thinking isnt so Good!!!!!!! So WE have problems. These probs are SO bad, that AG sent a Team of Suspension experts over to UK, to try to Re-Design the systems and Run Flat tyres(Should have done That FIRST eh!!!)
Colin McRae,s Support team come from the UK, so are very experienced with OUR prob Roads, they get their designs made for a choice of WORLD conditions for many different countries, shame other Manufactorers dont Do the Same.--Yet.(BUT-I think YOU know All this already) German Winter road conditions are Not the same as Uk. Must give you a buzz the next time I come thru your area.
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SAFETYFAST
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b318isp
Moderator Group
Joined: 10-October-2002
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 2057
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Posted: 24-February-2005 at 05:38 |
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What no one has mentioned yet is the importance of heel and toeing on slippy roads. A RWD car can force its rear wheels to rotate slower than the car is travelling due to engine braking - especially after a down shift.
I half spun by old Opel Rekord on a main road many years ago as a result of dropping from 4th to 2nd abrubtly. I learnt to heel and toe after that.
What sil328 describes sounds like either brake or, more likely, gearchange initiated instability (of which ABS nor traction control can help). BTW, the rumble may have been the sound of the skid?
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-August-2003
Location: Lost somewhere in time...
Status: Offline
Points: 6484
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Posted: 24-February-2005 at 06:57 |
b318isp wrote:
What no one has mentioned yet is the importance of heel and toeing on slippy roads. |
While I see your point, how many drivers can heel and toe. I've tried but did not find it easy at all. It might be something that more skilled drivers can do to reduce chances of skidding, but it isn't really a solution for the average motorist.
I would suggest that changing from 4th to 2nd without slowing down a lot first is the problem. Engine braking is not recomended at all by the IAM, or at least it wasn't when I last did a defensive driving course.
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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Phantom_Mark
Senior Member II
Joined: 21-September-2004
Location: Lincoln UK
Status: Offline
Points: 194
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Posted: 24-February-2005 at 08:13 |
I went out and had a play in mine yesterday, was expecting the stupid great 245's I have fitted to be more like sledges than tyres, truth is it was actualy pretty ok, one thing I did notice was the supreme use of the LSD, made sucha difference compared with other RWD cars I have driven in the snow without it fitted.
Mark.
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<<<<< The only way is up >>>>
( unless your in a 5 series, then sideways is cool too )
91' 525 24v Sport, Stainless Race Manifolds, PowerFlo Stainless + Decat, Big Bore Throttle Body, Viper 2 Chip + 17's, std BMW Air Filter :D
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b318isp
Moderator Group
Joined: 10-October-2002
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 2057
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Posted: 24-February-2005 at 08:16 |
Peter Fenwick wrote:
b318isp wrote:
What no one has mentioned yet is the importance of heel and toeing on slippy roads. |
While I see your point, how many drivers can heel and toe. I've tried but did not find it easy at all. It might be something that more skilled drivers can do to reduce chances of skidding, but it isn't really a solution for the average motorist.
I would suggest that changing from 4th to 2nd without slowing down a lot first is the problem. Engine braking is not recomended at all by the IAM, or at least it wasn't when I last did a defensive driving course. |
Yes it is tricky to master but it is fairly important for entusiastic RWD drivers! Even an abrupt downshift could cause a loss if control.
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sleeper
Really Senior Member II
Original and STILL best
Joined: 26-March-2004
Location: East Sussex/Kent border
Status: Offline
Points: 2098
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Posted: 24-February-2005 at 08:24 |
been there - done that!
doesn't need to be snowy/wet/cold etc either, nice sunny june day, slot 5 into slot 3 coming into a bend and weeeeeee! backwards over the verge!
oops!
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Nick DE
Senior Member I
Joined: 10-February-2005
Location: Rhein-Neckar-Kreis
Status: Offline
Points: 103
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Posted: 24-February-2005 at 13:02 |
@B 7 VP
I find winter driving conditions here remarkably like UK conditions - cold mornings but usually no frost or ice, wet surfaces in the morning, usually drying out by midday. The only difference is that in the summer it becomes nice and warm and I can justify driving a Cabrio. Whereas in the UK in the summer it remains as cold mornings but usually no frost or ice, wet surfaces in the morning, usually drying out by midday. Come to think of it why doesn't the UK use winter tyres all year round ? . Obviously it's very different in the high altitude areas such as Schwarzwald, but that's what snowchains are for.
The road surfaces are not what they are cracked up to be. Due to the economic crisis they is no money left for the roads, and so potholes and temporary patches are becoming the norm
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Go Darkness
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neileg
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 20-July-2004
Location: Northumberland
Status: Offline
Points: 638
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Posted: 24-February-2005 at 15:06 |
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Hi Nick DE. I was over in Germany in December, as far east as Dresden. The big difference between Germany and the UK is the temperature. I loved the ice frosted trees. We get those in the UK but only one or two at a time. In Bavaria I saw about 250km of white trees! It's seriously cold, I guess about 10Celcius colder. we complain about the cold in the UK, but it's nothing like mid-European cold.
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Cheers, Neil
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-August-2003
Location: Lost somewhere in time...
Status: Offline
Points: 6484
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Posted: 25-February-2005 at 04:15 |
b318isp wrote:
Peter Fenwick wrote:
b318isp wrote:
What no one has mentioned yet is the importance of heel and toeing on slippy roads. |
While I see your point, how many drivers can heel and toe. I've tried but did not find it easy at all. It might be something that more skilled drivers can do to reduce chances of skidding, but it isn't really a solution for the average motorist.
I would suggest that changing from 4th to 2nd without slowing down a lot first is the problem. Engine braking is not recomended at all by the IAM, or at least it wasn't when I last did a defensive driving course.
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Yes it is tricky to master but it is fairly important for entusiastic RWD drivers! Even an abrupt downshift could cause a loss if control. |
It's not always easy to find the time or space to practice, the roads are so busy these days that there's seldom room.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the theory is that while changing down and braking you simultaneously blip the throttle in a attempt to match the engine speed to the gear you are selecting. This is done by swivelling the foot that is on the brake pedal so that your to can also press the accelerator. Any tips would be appreciated because when I try I normally end up reving the nuts of the car or my foot slips of the pedals. 
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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328i sliding off road
