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KittyK View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tramlining
    Posted: 30-June-2003 at 20:35

Not sure if anyone can help - bought a Z3 just over 2 weeks ago, nice specimen 5 years old, 50K on the clock and seemingly looked after.  The only thing is the steering seems to 'tramline' a lot.

I'm going to take it a local tyre company to check the tracking and the wheel balance, but wondered if anyone had any other ideas?

The car has 17" wheels, rather than the 16" and 225's in the front 245's on the rear.

Any help appreciated.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-June-2003 at 20:52

Tyre pressures, brakes binding, knackered tyres other than that you should find it at the garage. Is the steering wheel centred?? 1st sign of a previous nasty bang.





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-July-2003 at 09:40
Wider tyres and different offset wheels can lead to increased tramlining.  It can be reduced by increasing the castor angle of the front suspension.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-July-2003 at 21:40

I have a 328i (96) and it tramlines quite bad aswell. Wheels are standard BMW alloys with 225x50(?) 16.had all tracking and suspension checked. All good,as you would hope for on a 33k car 


1996 N Montreal blue 328i saloon 45k / 01 Y Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-July-2003 at 22:15
Yep its the wide wheels that do it, i weave from lorry track to lorry track without noticing, stay in the fast lane that will solve your trouples.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-July-2003 at 22:38
Thats the best bet I reckon (watch out for those pesky Gatso's!!) Cheers paul

1996 N Montreal blue 328i saloon 45k / 01 Y Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-July-2003 at 00:31

OK, this is where I sound dumb... What does Tramlining feel like? - I've recently taken off my standard 14" BBS rims and replaced them with standard 15" BBS rims. Pirelli P6000s on the rear axle, Dunlop SP Sports on the fronts. 205/55/15s...

Since the swap I've noticed a MASSIVE increase in understeer. I daren't put the tail out, as the car feels so unstable. Also, when braking, the steering becomes incredibly heavy.

Haven't noticed the car wandering about the road, but I think it sits in a straight line a lot better than it used to. (Must get my tracking sorted!) Balancing feels a lot better as well. Hadn't realised how bad my balancing was previously until the nice smooth ride on the 15"s.

Thoughts anyone?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-July-2003 at 10:02

Omi, what pressures do you run? With those tyres you should have ~37psi up front and a little less in the back.

Tramlining feels like the car is being pulled sideways by any ridge or in-line road anomolly.

Big tyres are a common cause as are incorrect toe angles.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-July-2003 at 22:48

Yeah the tyre pressures affect the way that the 15" wheels change the cars handling, 37psi in the front and about 32psi in the rear is the optimum, they will feel a little more understeery (made up word) as they are wider than the 14" rims therefore you are putting less pressure/square inch on the road and the tyres will loose grip on the front easier, have faith in it, if the uspension is all ok (shocks springs etc) then the handling should be better, maybe less sharp when turning in but the fact that there is more rubber on the road will improve grip in the dry.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-July-2003 at 09:48

The optimum pressure depends on a lot of factors and need to be fine tuned based on thread wear (measure with avernier, etc.). Running 37f and 32r will cause a little more oversteer as the rears will squirm under load more. Setting tyre pressures is about making sure that the sidewalls and the thread take equal roles in supporting the weight of the car. More pressure means the thread takes more of the % load than the sidewalls and v.v.

You are incorrect about the surface area though - as it remains more or less constant if the tyre pressures are kept within a narrow enough range (see above). Don't forget that the force on the ground is always the same as it is equivalant to the cars mass! It is an urban myth that bigger tyres = more rubber on the road! What actually changes is shape of the contact patch, much less its area.

I have no evidance that it makes the car more understeery - the general consensus is that at 15", the E30 is the most balanced.

The lower sidewall of the 15" will IMPROVE turn in over the 14".

Having a wider tyre can allow more channels for water drainage whilst maintaining the same amount of rubber on the road, which, depending on tyre, can improve the wet weather handling.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-July-2003 at 18:53
Thanks for the replies.  I'll take it to the garage on Saturday and if not play with the big boys in the outside as suggested!!  It's just a little irritating in town on the way to work, the roads have all been laid, dug up, relaid, dug up, relaid .............  lots of bumps and lines to affect the steering!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-July-2003 at 00:52

Dunno on this one as drving the car with the 14" steel rims and narrow tyres it feels alot sharper but if you push it hard through a bend the rear end will break away very easily (dry conditions) but with the wider 15" rims and tyres the car will take alot more to lose that rear end.  The only reason i could have seen for this was the more rubber in contact with the road theory.

The force on the ground /square inch will change with wider wheels, and the car will be more likely to aquaplane on water with wider wheels also, as thinner tyres will be more effective in 'cutting' through the water to reach the tarmac below, the wider tyres will trap water easier in the centre of the tyre.

Wider tyres can be better in the wet as you say but it does depend alot on the tyre make and the design of the tread as you also say but i have always found that a car with narrower wheels will perform better in the wet.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-July-2003 at 17:06
<SCRIPT language=JavaScript> Well just got back from the tyre place and it turns out the tracking was well out.  Now found out that the two front tyres are nearly bald on the inside due to this.  Was all ready to have an argument with the BMW dealer as I have only done 700 miles in it - but when I phoned them they immediately apologised for not picking it up and agreed to pay for the replacement tyres and the tracking costs!  How refreshing!!! <SCRIPT src= "http://upgrade.marketscore.com/poptest">
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-July-2003 at 10:23

Paul,

Can you explain what you mean by "The force on the ground /square inch will change with wider wheels".

Narrower tyres are less prone to aquaplaning in principle but a wider tyre can accomodate much better thread patterns to make up for it. Nowadays, there is not so much of a difference - and in damp conditions, the wider tyre will be often better.

Kitty,

Nice resolution.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-July-2003 at 21:37

The force in contact with the ground has got to be diferent, the same weight but spread over a larger area, must put less pressure down on the road in any given area say a square inch. 

As for the wider tyres not being so good in the wet that is just from my personal experience, i have driven alot of cars and found that in general the ones with a narrow tyre fittet perform better in the wet, the damp is slightly different and i agree with your statement on the tread patterns there, i have just always found wider tyres to stay more squared when cornering and lead to the car sliding more easily.  

And glad to hear the stealer sorted you out Kitty, they can be nice sometimes. 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-July-2003 at 09:55

No, the weight of the car is the same so the force in total is the same. If the tyre pressure is the same, from P=F x A (pressure = force x area), the area will be the same too. What happens is that the shape of the contact patch changes. A narrow tyre has a contact patch more along the length of the car and a wider tyre has a contact patch more across the car. The area will be almost identical.

This is not 100% correct because the sidewalls will play a different supporting role (and tyre pressures are usually higher on wider tyres because of this), but the point is that it is an urban myth that bigger tyres give a bigger contact patch.

If you put on truck tyres, they would hardly deflect at all - you would almost have point contact!

Regarding the wet, my exprience is different. I don't have enough information about aquaplaning, but in damp conditions I have always found bigger tyres to be better. Usually they are better quality too! Try and find some braking tests within a model range. You will find that the car with the bigger tyres brake better - even thought they have the same ABS systems.

Your point about wide tyres squaring to the road needs to be tempered by the fact that you will get less roll before they skid because they will slide at a lower cornering force. Your point also suggests that it is NOT advantageous to have the tyres squared to the road too - or have I picked that one up wrong!?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-July-2003 at 19:13
Whoa, not looking to have an out and out row over this, just saying that from my personal experience narrower tyres have performed better in the wet conditions.
The squarer tyres definately tend to slide easier in the wet, as the tyre stays upright and just skids over the road once the water gets underneath.

If your experience has been different then fair enough, only my opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-July-2003 at 13:53
tramlining is caused by wider tyres. the wider you go the worse it will get . its combated a little by the slightly less wider wheels /tyres at the front like bmw do on the sport / m3 models etc .
if its a problem have skinny tyres on your car. myself i prefer the fat tyres and handling .

the more rubber on the road the better grip you have , the only difference wide tyres make in any weather is the snow, in countrys with a lot of snow they use a second set of wheels with snow tyres ,and these are skinny .
i drive very fast most of the time in all weather and i have used several different cars/tyres , i prefer wide tyres as the grip is increased in rain and dry over skinny tyres, its the compound as well thats involved not just the size .
p.s i have not crashed a car yet . fingers crossed
a racing driver once told me to drive through my tyres . this was the best advise ever.
no matter how good a car is if you put crap tyres on it ,it will handle crap and visa versa.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2003 at 16:59
But snow tyres are usually studded or spiked.

Paul, feel free to disagree at anytime! Just explaining the theory. The more upright a tyre is the more grip it will have!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-July-2003 at 23:10
I will disagree at all times don't worry , thank you for enlightening me on the topic.
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