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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 17:05
Originally posted by scarface scarface wrote:


As long as humans are in control of cars we will always have accidents.


Correct

Originally posted by scarface scarface wrote:


We already have an enviable road safety record, reducing speed will not bring deaths down that much further.


We definitely have one of the best records yes, but I still think we have too many. Better skill & less speed (particularly inappropriate speed) can make further useful gains, it's people's lives/serious injuries  (potentially someone we all know & love) that we should be trying to save. Deaths/injuries that happen because of people's lazyness, unnecessary risk taking, impatience & thrill seeking are avoidable. Very few people are missing the required physical skills to operate safely within our limits, it's attitudes to the task in hand that tend to be the problem.

Originally posted by scarface scarface wrote:


it's all blame culture...


It's the "it's NOT my fault or problem" culture that is to blame. How many times do people have collisions that they could have avoided by being defensive in their attitude, but instead they seek to take the moral high ground ?
I'm in the right and a collision happened so that I could assert that point, rather than yielding to someone in the wrong to avert the collision.

Originally posted by scarface scarface wrote:


.......and impossible targets.


Not impossible targets, complete elimination of death & serious injury is impossible, big reductions are not.






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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 18:14
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


Not impossible targets, complete elimination of death & serious injury is impossible, big reductions are not.


Yep. And the simplest way to do that is to reduce the speed limit to 20MPH.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 18:36
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


Not impossible targets, complete elimination of death & serious injury is impossible, big reductions are not.


Yep. And the simplest way to do that is to reduce the speed limit to 20MPH.


Well they have reduced limits to 20mph in some places haven't they.

Reducing to 20mph limits everywhere would be unreasonable though. Expecting everyone to stick within our current limits shouldn't be.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 18:37
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


Reducing to 20mph limits everywhere would be unreasonable though. Expecting everyone to stick within our current limits shouldn't be.


It shouldn't be, but it is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 18:47
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


Reducing to 20mph limits everywhere would be unreasonable though. Expecting everyone to stick within our current limits shouldn't be.


It shouldn't be, but it is.


And that is why they get prosecuted, because they don't live up to the
societies expectations/requirements of them. The requirements they had to display to pass their driving test & show that they could do just that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:04

I've copied and pasted this from the traffic answers forum.

It wasn't directly aimed at me, but puts across a view that made me step back a bit, its a bit long, but worth a read.

George Monbiot
Tuesday December 20, 2005
The Guardian

They call themselves libertarians; I think they're antisocial ********

The car is slowly turning us, like the Americans and the Australians,
into a nation that recognises only the freedom to act


The road-rage lobby couldn't have been more wrong. Organisations such as the Association of British Drivers or Safe Speed - the boy racers' club masquerading as a road-safety campaign - have spent years claiming that speeding doesn't cause accidents. Safe Speed, with the help of some of the most convoluted arguments I've ever read, even seeks to prove that speed cameras "make our roads more dangerous". Other groups, such as Motorists Against Detection (officially known as Mad), have been toppling, burning and blowing up the hated cameras. These and about a thousand such campaigns maintain that speed limits, speed traps and the government's "war on the motorist" are shakedown operations whose sole purpose is to extract as much money as possible from the poor oppressed driver.

Well last week the Department for Transport published the results of the study it had commissioned into the efficacy of its speed cameras. It found that the number of drivers speeding down the roads where fixed cameras had been installed fell by 70%, and the number exceeding the speed limit by more than 15mph dropped by 91%. As a result, 42% fewer people were killed or seriously injured in those places than were killed or injured on the same stretches before the cameras were erected. The number of deaths fell by more than 100 a year. The people blowing up speed cameras have blood on their hands.

But this is not, or not really, an article about speed, or cameras, or
even cars. It is about the rise of the antisocial ******** who believe they should be allowed to do what they want, whenever they want, regardless of the consequences. I believe that while there are many reasons for the growth of individualism in the UK, the extreme
libertarianism now beginning to take hold here begins on the road.

When you drive, society becomes an obstacle. Pedestrians, bicycles, traffic calming, speed limits, the law: all become a nuisance to be wished away.

The more you drive, the more bloody-minded and individualistic you
become. The car is slowly turning us, like the Americans and the
Australians, into a nation that recognises only the freedom to act, and not the freedom from the consequences of other people's actions. We drive on the left in Britain, but we are being driven to the right.

It is not just because of his celebration of everything brash and flash
that Jeremy Clarkson has become the boy racer's hero. He articulates,with a certain wit and with less equivocation than any other writer in this country, the doctrine that he should be permitted to swing his fist - whoever's nose is in the way. For years he has championed the unrestrained freedom of the road. He takes it so far that from time to time he appears to incite his disciples to vandalise and even kill.

"If the only way of getting their [the government's] attention," he told the readers of the Sun in 2002, "is to destroy the tools that pay for their junkets and their new wallpaper, then so be it. I wish the people from Mad all the very best." In February this year, he suggested that speed cameras might be "filled ... with insulating foam that sets rock hard".

After the London bombings in July, he observed that "many commuters are now switching to bicycles ... can I offer five handy hints to those setting out on a bike for the first time.

1. Do not cruise through red lights. Because if I'm coming the other way, I will run you down, for fun.

2. Do not pull up at junctions in front of a line of traffic. Because if I'm behind you, I will set off at normal speed and you will be crushed under my wheels ... "

Clarkson wants society out of his way when he's driving, and he isn't
too particular about how it's done. One day, one of his fans will take
him seriously.

But, doubtless cheered by the response of his readers, he has expanded his journalism from attacks on "the Lycra-Nazi sandalistas of Islington" (cyclists) to polemics against every kind of government intervention. He now rails against "nannying bureaucrats sticking their index-linked snouts into the trough" (health and safety inspectors); complains that he has to tell the police why he wants to keep a gun; appears to champion the right of householders to shoot burglars in the back; and ponders the use of landmines to deter ramblers.

His acolytes are also venturing on to new ground. The website of the
Association of British Drivers carries the usual links to campaigns
against humps in the road (yes, people really are that sad), speed
cameras and the congestion charge. But it also directs its readers to
about 50 sites claiming that global warming is a fraud and a lie,
several tirades against the evils of the nanny state, and an article by
John Redwood calling for lower taxes.

Libertarianism has left the road and is now driving down the pavement.

Of course, these politics are possible only while we have a state
capable of picking up the pieces. If there were not a massive hidden
subsidy for private transport, those who decry the nannying bureaucrats couldn't afford to leave their drives.

Speed cameras, according to the government's study, now save the country Ł258m in annual medical bills: a fraction of the billions in health costs inflicted by Clarkson's chums. Just as the leftwing movements of the 1970s, in the geographer David Harvey's words, "failed to recognise or confront ... the inherent tension between the quest for individual freedoms and social justice", the new libertarians fail to recognise the extent to which their freedoms depend on an enabling state. They hate the institution that allows them to believe that they can live without institutions.

It is strange to see how the car has been overlooked as an agent of
political change. We know that the breaking of the unions, the
dismantling of the welfare state and the sale of council houses that
Margaret Thatcher pioneered made us more individualistic. But the way in which the transition from individualism to the next phase of
neoliberalism - libertarianism - was assisted by her transport policies
has been largely ignored. She knew what she was doing. She spoke of "the great car-owning democracy", and asserted that "a man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure". Her road-building programme was an exercise in both civil and social engineering. "Economics are the method," she told us, "the object is to >change the soul." The slowly shifting consciousness of the millions who spend much of their day sitting in traffic makes interventionist government ever harder. The difference between the age of Herbert Morrison and the age of Peter Mandelson can be accounted for, in part, by the motorcar.

It shouldn't be hard to see how politically foolish are the current
government's transport policies. The Ł11.4bn that it is spending on road building is an Ł11.4bn subsidy to the Conservative party. However much Blair seeks to accommodate the new libertarianism, he cannot consistently position himself to the right of the opposition.

The longer he sustains Thatcher's programme of social engineering, the more trouble he stores up for his successors. Every branch line that is closed, every bus that is taken off the road, every new lane that is added to a motorway hastens the day when the Tories get back behind the wheel.

Monbiot.com

Best Wishes

Nigel

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:05
Yes, Ms Perfect.

As a libertarian, I take great umbrage at the concept that I'm not living up to society's expectations by not adhering to some arbitary limit that bears no resemblance to the realities of life. If they were to adjust the speed limit up tomorrow, would there really have been a sea change in society's values that suddenly made it legal to do what was criminal yesterday? If they reduce the speed limit tomorrow, that means that behaviour we all exhibited legally yesterday is now criminal. I can't see that sea change in society's norms and values. And with more than 50% of all road users travelling in excess of the national speed limit, I can only guess that society itself isn't expecting quite the same thing of me as it seems to expect of itself.

Bottom line is: speed limits are a lazy solution to a problem. They are bad, because people think they can drive blindfold, as long as they are below the speed limit. The message that gets sent out by the overwhelming reliance on scameras and carefully massaged KSI's is that speed is the only problem on our roads, and that is the only thing you will get done for.

You can be as sanctimonious as you like, but you will never get me to concede that the current regime of government / police / scameras has a serious concern about road safety and especially not that the dependency on scameras helps road safety.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:10
Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

The Guardian



Do you really need to read any further? Good old George Monbiot -- he is as pro-car as George W Bush is pro-Al Qaeda.

I'd be interested to know what the comparison is of cyclists who ignore traffic rules is as a percentage of all cyclists compared to the percentage of motorists who do the same thing.

The only difference is that the arrogant, selfish motorist pays for the road.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:14
Originally posted by The Raving Monster Looney The Raving Monster Looney wrote:

Just as the leftwing movements of the 1970s, in the geographer David Harvey's words, "failed to recognise or confront ... the inherent tension between the quest for individual freedoms and social justice", the new libertarians fail to recognise the extent to which their freedoms depend on an enabling state.


If I might be permitted to offer a comment on the theory of politics, this is a perspective only a Guardian journalist can hold: the idea that a libertarian can only be a libertarian because of the welfare state. Utterly barking mad, and utterly out of touch with what libertarians really want.

The man is a fool and about as trustworthy as an independent survey in favour of scameras.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:21
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Yes, Ms Perfect.


I've told you I'm not.

Quote
As a libertarian, I take great umbrage at the concept that I'm not living up to society's expectations by not adhering to some arbitary limit that bears no resemblance to the realities of life. If they were to adjust the speed limit up tomorrow, would there really have been a sea change in society's values that suddenly made it legal to do what was criminal yesterday? If they reduce the speed limit tomorrow, that means that behaviour we all exhibited legally yesterday is now criminal. I can't see that sea change in society's norms and values. And with more than 50% of all road users travelling in excess of the national speed limit, I can only guess that society itself isn't expecting quite the same thing of me as it seems to expect of itself.

Bottom line is: speed limits are a lazy solution to a problem. They are bad, because people think they can drive blindfold, as long as they are below the speed limit. The message that gets sent out by the overwhelming reliance on scameras and carefully massaged KSI's is that speed is the only problem on our roads, and that is the only thing you will get done for.

You can be as sanctimonious as you like, but you will never get me to concede that the current regime of government / police / scameras has a serious concern about road safety and especially not that the dependency on scameras helps road safety.


I disagree it is real life. That limit has been there for 40 years, it's not a case of what was legal yesterday & is not today, it's something that people have had plenty of chance to get right. People don't adhere for a variety of reasons & not many of them good. You say 50% of drivers don't stick to them, but remember all of those are only a percentage of the entire population who have a stake in this. It isn't all about drivers & their sometimes selfish needs.

Speed limits are a lazy part of the solution, but a part of the solution they are & only a part. Speed limits & adhering to that arbitrary limit is not an excuse for other bad behaviour & that will have to be dealt with as well, by other means.

You can be as indignant as you like, but it won't stop me believing that whilst speed limits are not the total solution to safety on our roads they are a vital part of it.


Edited by livvy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:26
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

It isn't all about drivers & their sometimes selfish needs.


Yeah, selfish, that's us, that's why we prop up the economy with ludicrous fuel taxes, and road tax and MOT's and have all sorts of stringent restrictions placed on us that other road users don't have or can ignore, and we carry the can by default in any interaction between us and one of the road users who DOESN'T pay for the road use.

We're so selfish, I'm so ashamed.

I'll go kill myself now, and make the country a greener, better place.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:29
 
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

It isn't all about drivers & their sometimes selfish needs.



Very theatrical response & a just a bit exaggerated I feel.



Edited by livvy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:31
Yeah, but we pay all the time, whether we're selfish or not. I don't hear anyone even saying thanks.

Selfish gits.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:31
The attitude of people is the biggest vital part of safety on our roads, speed is a directly attributed to peoples attitude.

Try to change the attitude and not the speed. cameras don't help as they negativley increase the attitude aspect.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:32
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Yeah, but we pay all the time, whether we're selfish or not. I don't hear anyone even saying thanks.

Selfish gits.


I pay too remember.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:35
Originally posted by Rhys Rhys wrote:

The attitude of people is the biggest vital part of safety on our roads, speed is a directly attributed to peoples attitude.

Try to change the attitude and not the speed. cameras don't help as they negativley increase the attitude aspect.


I agree with the importance of attitude & DIS is a direct attempt to deal with that. But attitude is longer term & requires far more work. I've said speed is a lazy option & only focusing on speed is not the answer.

But ignoring speeding isn't a solution at all. It has to be kept in check while you address the other issues. Only with a higher standard can you expect safe higher limits.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:38
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


I pay too remember.


When was the last time someone said thank you to you just because you drive a car and prop up the welfare state, from which all freedoms and liberties flow?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:40
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


Very theatrical response & a just a bit exaggerated I feel.


No, really, I'm just on my way down to the garage. I'll gas myself with the car, so that it can at least do one useful thing for society.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 19:43
They haven't, but I don't expect them to. I drive a car because it benefits me & my life, if it benefits others in the process then splendid. I don't have a problem with that & I only drive what I can afford to. If I couldn't afford to I wouldn't do it. If the costs go up unmanageably then I get something cheaper to run because I want to keep driving. I also try to keep my licence free from endorsements because I want to drive & not incur further unnecessary costs.


Edited by livvy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-December-2005 at 20:27
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

They haven't, but I don't expect them to. I drive a car because it
benefits me & my life, if it benefits others in the process then
splendid. I don't have a problem with that & I only drive what I
can afford to. If I couldn't afford to I wouldn't do it. If the costs
go up unmanageably then I get something cheaper to run because I want
to keep driving. I also try to keep my licence free from endorsements
because I want to drive & not incur further unnecessary costs.



I agree with that, I'd do the same (and not necessarily stay with BMW either - though given the chance I'd go back to one). As for points/endorsments on my licence, I haven't got any and intend to keep it that way.
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