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T.J. View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 09:55

I like Hondas. Alot. Driving them for some time and you can see the engineering quality shine through in every aspect of ownership. If the Accord was RWD I'd have one over the equivalent-bhp'd 3, deffo. (I think saying it is more performance-orientated than any BMW in the last 10yrs is stretching credibility a bit tho )

If the 166 was RWD, I'd have one over the equivalent-bhp'd E39.

If I'd the budget for an M5, I'd buy the Q'porte - EVOs beating of the M5 was only the icing on the cake.

The only reason I'm with BMW is cos they handle & are RWD. I'd really like more sporting RWD options to be honest. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 10:01
Originally posted by T.J. T.J. wrote:

If the 166 was RWD, I'd have one over the equivalent-bhp'd E39.

you like to throw money away then?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 10:10
Originally posted by T.J. T.J. wrote:

I like Hondas. Alot. Driving them for some time and you can see the engineering quality shine through in every aspect of ownership. If the Accord was RWD I'd have one over the equivalent-bhp'd 3, deffo. (I think saying it is more performance-orientated than any BMW in the last 10yrs is stretching credibility a bit tho )

Ok then, name one. The only one I can think of is the M3 CSL. The E30 M3 is too old and i can't think of anything else.

Let me put it another way. How many cars have BMW made with no sound proofing? Driver electronioc aids other than ABS. I believe all BMWs have traction control don't they? The Accord Type-R really is a lot more hardcore than even I thought it would be. No aircon, no leather, no cruise conrol, no trim on the inside of the boot lid. The only mod cons are electric windows, electric mirrors and a cd player. How many BMWs have they made that have sacrified so many driver comforts in the name of saving weight?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 11:13
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

No aircon, no leather, no cruise conrol, no trim on the inside of the boot lid. The only mod cons are electric windows, electric mirrors and a cd player. How many BMWs have they made that have sacrified so many driver comforts in the name of saving weight?



Every BMW you can buy starts off with that spec. Apart from the CD player.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 12:38
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

Originally posted by T.J. T.J. wrote:

(I think saying it is more performance-orientated than any BMW in the last 10yrs is stretching credibility a bit tho )

Ok then, name one. The only one I can think of is the M3 CSL. The E30 M3 is too old and i can't think of anything else.

Let me put it another way. How many cars have BMW made with no sound proofing? Driver electronioc aids other than ABS. I believe all BMWs have traction control don't they? The Accord Type-R really is a lot more hardcore than even I thought it would be. No aircon, no leather, no cruise conrol, no trim on the inside of the boot lid. The only mod cons are electric windows, electric mirrors and a cd player. How many BMWs have they made that have sacrified so many driver comforts in the name of saving weight?



Name one? Ok, any 3-series, 5-series, 6-series, 7-series, 8-series, Z-series & now the 1-series. Even the lowest power versions. But not the X-series. Why? 'Cos they're all Rear Wheel Drive!!!

As for "hard-core" - rubbish!  Back in the late '60's one of the big 3 Detroit gang (GM iirc) sold a "performance" version of one of their cars. Engine output was exactly the same as standard except they didn't balance the crank - "Look at the power of that engine sir, see the way it shakes on it's mountings !". Then they stripped out some of the sound-proofing - "Listen to how loud the engine is sir, hear the power!". And people believed them!

Back in the late '80s I had a CRX (Mk 2 pre-Vetec) which was a right little buzz bomb. 130bhp & a red-line at 7200rpm. And no torque until 4500rpm which meant if you were caught in the wrong gear the Vicars wife in her Nova would leave you for dead.  Handling was great on smooth roads but take a cross country thrash & you were airborne more than you were on the ground. Great little car (one of my favourites) but the performance wasn't as great as it would have you believe.

Back in the present day & not much has changed. Power bands so high you can only use it on the track which is just as well as that's the only place you can exploit the handling.

Funny how a Honda with no kit is "performance focused" & a BMW with no kit is being stingy!  If you want to believe your Type R has no a/c or boot lining for performance reasons then fine. I think it's more likely to keep costs down but then Honda always did spend most of the development budget on the engine.



Edited by kbannon
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 15:12

Andy your talking rubbish. You are right the Accord type-R has a high power band, ie the vtec doesn't come in until 5800 rpm. However before this it still has plenty of go, in fact it is just as quick as any other 2.2 litre n/a car. It will still pull from 30mph in fifth without any problems and when you look at the in gear accelleration times it isn't that far behind the 328. This is achieved by having low gearing. 5th is equivalent to 4th in an e36 328. Once you pass 5800 rpm the accelleration is explosive. To liken the 2.2 vtec engine to an unbalanced std engine is just stupid. It has a much higher output than the 2.2 engine they used in the previous acccord model. 

Just because something is RWD doesn't make it performance focused. A smart car is RWD.

These days, on the basic models, the RWD bit is more of a marketing device than an actual performance credential. Your more likely to get a Ford focus to oversteer than an 318i and in fact

Spokey, I thought all BMWs even non se cars came with aircon as std. They certainly all have sound proofing

In order to save weight the ATR has dipensed with sound proofing, and bits of unecessary trim. It has very few creature comforts, it comes with an LSD, recaro bucket seats, stiff sports suspension (which is excellent on bumpy roads btw) and additional front and rear bracing as standard. All these things actually compromise the cars comfort and refinement, but then it is has been made to do one thing, drive fast and it does it very well. On a twisty road it would leave all but M BMWs for dead. BMWs however all come with lots of sound proofing, new models, except maybe some of the smaller engined cars, come with traction control and other driver aids. Most have aircon as standard (the sport models definately do along with a host of other gismos) My point is that BMW have made their cars refined to appeal to their customers, even M cars have high spec leather, climate etc. By making them refined they have removed at least part of the focus from purely performance. Thi is not a critisism it is simply a fact. The accord has none of these feature because it is not meant to be refined, which is why is is more peformance focused than all BMWs bar the M3CSL. In fact the approach BMW took to the ATR is similar to that taken by BMW with the CSL. I certainly don't think reduction in trim is to save money. It may have enabled them to keep the list price lower, but the cost of the extras (LSD etc) must have more than outweighted the  saving on trim etc. BMWs with low spec are stingy because a low spec BMW doesn't even come with alloys and it is not low spec in order to save weight. People expect BMWs to be luxurious, the don't expect Type-R Hondas to be. 

Have you driven an Accord, integra type-R? I wouldn't include the civic because it has no LSD and the creature comforts are there in order to make it appeal to a wider audience.

 

 

 



Edited by Peter Fenwick
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 15:21
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

Your more likely to get a Ford focus to oversteer than an 318i and in fact



B*ll*cks. Especially when the 318i is an E30. 

I drove an Accord recently as a loan car. I nearly fell asleep it was so boring. It would take a LOT more than a hot engine to make it a driver's car, but since I haven't driven a Type-R Accord, I can't comment on it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 15:33
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

Your more likely to get a Ford focus to oversteer than an 318i and in fact



B*ll*cks. Especially when the 318i is an E30. 

I drove an Accord recently as a loan car. I nearly fell asleep it was so boring. It would take a LOT more than a hot engine to make it a driver's car, but since I haven't driven a Type-R Accord, I can't comment on it.

In my original comment any car made in the last 10 years. I think the E30 is a lot older than that. BMW have dialled out the oversteer characterisitics out of their later cars to make them safer for the majority of owners.  

My point is the Accord type-R is a lot more than just a cooking accord with a hot engine. Trust me it is so much more. The difference is  similar to  that between a 320 and an M3. A standard accord would make anyone go to sleep.

I asked Tiff Needel on the fifth Gear website aftershow chat room what he would go for, an accord type-r or a BMW 328/330. His response was it depends what you want, a hardcore road racer or a refined rapid cruiser.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 15:57
I think an E36 318i would step out a lot easier than a Ford Focus as well (having driven both.)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 16:18

Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

I think an E36 318i would step out a lot easier than a Ford Focus as well (having driven both.)

i do have to agree with that

the focus needs a hard in to the corner then lift off the power to at least make the back end want to even think about comeing out.on the other hand show an asmatic 4 cylinder bmw[or other RWD] car then its a diffrent matter to allow the odd cheeky slide

its a dogs world out there
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 16:54

Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

I think an E36 318i would step out a lot easier than a Ford Focus as well (having driven both.)

Are you sure. My 328 would only step out at the back if I got on the power mid bend. Otherwise it just tended to understeer. Also My wifes focus can be made to lift off oversteer, unlike my 328. In fact if the BMW ever did lose the back end mid corner, backing off brought it back again. I have read a lot of reviews about the lower powered 3 series models saying that you wouldn't know it was a rwd car by the way it drives.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2006 at 21:13
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

Andy your talking rubbish. You are right the Accord type-R has a high power band, ie the vtec doesn't come in until 5800 rpm. However before this it still has plenty of go, in fact it is just as quick as any other 2.2 litre n/a car.



If there's any rubbish being talked it's coming out of your backside.

I made the point about the CRX making 130bhp but having no torque low down because, no matter how much bhp it has it's still just a 1600. Bhp is just torque x revs (ask any motorcyclist where there power band is). Consequently, your 2.2 vtec has the same torque as any other engine of similar capacity. The fact that it's peak power is at some astronomically high figure is of little consequence as by the time you have got there the car with low down torque is gone. I know this because when I had my CRX my brother had a 309 GTI 1.9. That had 130bhp too but a lot more torque a lot lower down. That's why everyone raves about modern diesel performance.

You make the point about lower refinement making the car more focused. Utter cr@p. Ferrari's are the most refined they've ever been. So they're less focused as drivers cars? I don't think so. Honda's top performance car was the NSX which was often criticised for being too civilised.

I made the point about rear wheel drive as the only benefit of rwd is that it frees the front wheels to steer & the back wheels to drive giving better chassis balance. That's driver focus to the exclusion of space & cost. Front wheel drive is chosen by the majority of manufacturers for lower production costs & interior space reasons.

That's why BMW have a more sporting line up than Honda. I don't see any front wheel drive cars on the grid for F1!

You say your Type R is more than a cooking Accord with a hot motor. How exactly? It's a standard Accord bodyshell with a screamer engine, no suspension & a pram handle on the back. Hardly a homologation special is it?

Honda are very successful making small to medium cars but they've never managed to make anything to compete with the 5's & 7's of this world. Honda compete with Volvo & Saab in the image stakes but they're a long, long way from BMW/Audi/Mercedes.

You chose to move away from BMW to Honda & that's fine, it's your choice. But don't try to tell us your Honda's so much better than our BMW's, it just doesn't wash.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2006 at 02:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2006 at 03:26

Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

no more ugly than a honda meeting a bmw in a head on smash

its a dogs world out there
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2006 at 04:47

Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

  And no torque until 4500rpm which meant if you were caught in the wrong gear the Vicars wife in her Nova would leave you for dead. 

You're an enthusiast out on a brisk drive:  why would you be caught in the wrong gear?? Now if you like surfing along on a wave of torque, then fair enough. But no one I know goes out on a blast and short shifts. If you do, buy a diesel. You'll get alot more rewards than my 328i for example (which doesn't come on cam till nearly 4 grand and runs out of puff before 6k unless I do an M50 manifold conversion).

I agree the ATR, ITR, & CTR powerbands are way up there. But you just drive up there. Like in a 330CD, where you drive down there. They both go like stink, just in different ways. EVO magazine did a twin test between the Accord Type-R & a Scooby back in 98/99 and it was very interesting, with the Accord impressing them greatly in most elements of performance driving including traction (and it was pouring for the duration of the test) and cross country speed. Yes they said it lacked the bang out of bends the Scooby had, but it still kept with it no problems.

So the Accord has the speed more than covered if you are prepared and enjoy the way you have to access it.  It quite light for a large 4dr saloon, which may negate it's torque difficiency, may cut costs, but also enhances said performance - not to mention handling. As contemporary tests showed, it performed very well on UK asphalt compared to leaders such as Scooby, 328i et al. It has additional shell bracing across suspension points. It has reduced equipment. It has serious performance chairs in it. Which means it's quite focused. And before someone restarts the "reduced equipment & trim doesn't mean it's focused, just it's crap jap quality/price cutting" malarkey, look a t all the performance-focused icons out there: Clio Cup, M3 CSL, 360 Stradale, GT3, STI WRX RA, EVO gazillions.... all minimal kit to reduce weight to the direct benefit of sticker price in some instances, but also weight. Even BMWs cynical marketing exercise that was the 330Ci Clubsport boasted weight reduction by a couple of KGs soundproofing removal.

Now, I think something does need clarification. We need to compare Hondas Type-R with BMWs M-power. In this instance, both are quite focused on performance, and I don't think you can say one is more or less than the other. Someone mentioned the NSX was soft; an NSX-R is NOT. A 545i is soft - a V10 M5 with 7 speed SMG is NOT.

Hondas Type R range are lower down the price chain than M-power. So it's a bit unfair to compare Accord-TRs to equivalent price 328s when they were designed for different things. The TR is of course going to be more performance orientated. Comparing the bread&butter models, it could be argued that the BMW is more performance-orientated... how many standard Accords do you see out on a trackday compared to 320i etc - is this to do with the driver profile or the car? Is it only because of RWD?

And regarding the Focus comments - you can't get a Focus to power oversteer out of a roundabout, but you get them to trail brake into bends with the tail out more than a 318i, and they are just as much fun to pedal along in my opinion. I had a FANTASTIC drive from Castle Combe to Thruxton one wet April in a 115bhp TDCi.

 



Edited by T.J.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2006 at 04:54

PS can you believe an IS250 has struck up all this debate?!? I think Lexus has employed Killian to kick off this post to make us fight amongst ourselves and try to destroy BMW loyalty, in the hope some of us will defect.

So wots the kickback, Bannon? How thick was the brown envelope! Whats that? "A bag of money" you say...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2006 at 04:56
LOL - no kickbacks 
This debate was not started by me - I merely pointed out the fact that Lexus don't want their drivers to have fun!
Can you imagine a Lexus Club track day? Everyone would have to spend 10 minutes before each session trying to turn off TC!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2006 at 06:53

Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:


If there's any rubbish being talked it's coming out of your backside.

Crap frequently comes out of my backside

Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:




I made the point about the CRX making 130bhp but having no torque low down because, no matter how much bhp it has it's still just a 1600. Bhp is just torque x revs (ask any motorcyclist where there power band is). Consequently, your 2.2 vtec has the same torque as any other engine of similar capacity. The fact that it's peak power is at some astronomically high figure is of little consequence as by the time you have got there the car with low down torque is gone.

Only if you drive at the same rpm as the car with low down torque. My 328 was beaten by a seat cupra TDI until I got past 4k and caught up. As I said before the ATR's gear ratios are different so at any given speed it tends to be reving higher than most other cars. This means that it is closer to it's power band. Now once you hit the vtec it is posssible to keep it there, so as long as you don't sit at 50mph in 5th and expect to keep up with a car with a big engine or TDI then it is fine. If you want low down torque buy a diesel. They do it much better than any petrol car.

Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:



You make the point about lower refinement making the car more focused. Utter cr@p. Ferrari's are the most refined they've ever been. So they're less focused as drivers cars?

NO it isn't

The ferari F40, which is often picked as Ferraris best car,has absolutley no refinements. When ferrari wanted to make a more focused version of the 360 what did they do????? Reduced weight, rediced refinements. Also I didn't say driver focused, I said performance focused. How many racing cars have heated leater seats, traction control, sound insulation.

Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:


I made the point about rear wheel drive as the only benefit of rwd is that it frees the front wheels to steer & the back wheels to drive giving better chassis balance. That's driver focus to the exclusion of space & cost. Front wheel drive is chosen by the majority of manufacturers for lower production costs & interior space reasons.

That's why BMW have a more sporting line up than Honda. I don't see any front wheel drive cars on the grid for F1!

I aslo don't see any cars with sound insulation, aircon, leather, climate etc. The fact the Honda is FWD is the one downside in its performance credentials, but then most touring cars are FWD. The ATR isn't a ground up performance car like say a porsche, but then neither is an M3.

Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:


More than a cooking Accord with a hot motor. How exactly? It's a standard Accord bodyshell with a screamer engine, no suspension & a pram handle on the back. Hardly a homologation special is it?

It isn't a homologation special. How manu of those have BMW made recently

However it isn't just an accord with no suspension, a spoiler and a hot engine.

The body shell has been stiffened  by the addition of extra metal and strut braces. The ATR for instance couldn't have folding rear seats because the bulkhead behind them has got a lot of extra bracing.

It has it's own engine gear box and Limited slip differential.

The suspension is stiffer, but it does still ride the bumps very well, infact at speed over a bumpy road it is as good as my 328 if not better and the body as a whole is a lot stiffer.

The brakes are bigger, 300mm on the front, and it has 2 pot calipers up front. The same as those fitted to the NSX.

The seats proper reccaros with the adjustable leg rest.

The weight has been kept to a minimum by removing sound proofing under bonet and boot trim as well as a whole host of electrical items that cooking Accords come with.  

 

Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:




You chose to move away from BMW to Honda & that's fine, it's your choice. But don't try to tell us your Honda's so much better than our BMW's, it just doesn't wash.

I didn't try to tell anyone my car was better than your BMWs. I simply said it was more performance focused. As an all rounder my car is rubbish compared to a 3 series. It is noisy inside, the lack of aircon makes it hot in the summer, the low gear ratios makes it get the same fuel economy as my 328 despite the smaller engine, the ECU is set up to run on Super UL which is more expensive. The ride comfort, especially over speed bumps isn't as good, it hasn't got the effortless grunt that my 328 had. However when you just want to drive quickly it is a lot better. It encourages you to push it to it's limits in a way my 328 never did. I have hit the rev limiter many times simply because it want't to rev. I don't think I hit it once im my BM. The handling is sharper simply because it weighs 100kg less and the LSD gives it a staggering amount of traction out of bends. 

They could have put all the toys in as well and made up for it by putting a bigger engine in, like BMW have done with the M3. It is a very fast car but has all the luxuries you could want. However if they had done that it would have cost a lot more and been a totally different beast. BMW did something simliar with the CSL which didn't even come with a radio as standard, and had a carboard boot floor, my cars is made from corrugated plastic so I won't be using it to transport bags of cement..

It is not better, just different. It's been aimed at a different market. My initial comment was merely in response to a dig someone made.

Oh and some days I would like my 328 back, others I wouldn't swap the accord for anything else. If I had a lot more money I would have gone for an M3 but I didn't and the 3 series I could have got for the same cash wouldn't have been anything like as fun to drive. Would I go back to BMW? Yes without a doubt, but not for any of their current models 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2006 at 07:02
Originally posted by T.J. T.J. wrote:

Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

  And no torque until 4500rpm which meant if you were caught in the wrong gear the Vicars wife in her Nova would leave you for dead. 

You're an enthusiast out on a brisk drive:  why would you be caught in the wrong gear?? Now if you like surfing along on a wave of torque, then fair enough. But no one I know goes out on a blast and short shifts. If you do, buy a diesel. You'll get alot more rewards than my 328i for example (which doesn't come on cam till nearly 4 grand and runs out of puff before 6k unless I do an M50 manifold conversion).

I agree the ATR, ITR, & CTR powerbands are way up there. But you just drive up there. Like in a 330CD, where you drive down there. They both go like stink, just in different ways. EVO magazine did a twin test between the Accord Type-R & a Scooby back in 98/99 and it was very interesting, with the Accord impressing them greatly in most elements of performance driving including traction (and it was pouring for the duration of the test) and cross country speed. Yes they said it lacked the bang out of bends the Scooby had, but it still kept with it no problems.

So the Accord has the speed more than covered if you are prepared and enjoy the way you have to access it.  It quite light for a large 4dr saloon, which may negate it's torque difficiency, may cut costs, but also enhances said performance - not to mention handling. As contemporary tests showed, it performed very well on UK asphalt compared to leaders such as Scooby, 328i et al. It has additional shell bracing across suspension points. It has reduced equipment. It has serious performance chairs in it. Which means it's quite focused. And before someone restarts the "reduced equipment & trim doesn't mean it's focused, just it's crap jap quality/price cutting" malarkey, look a t all the performance-focused icons out there: Clio Cup, M3 CSL, 360 Stradale, GT3, STI WRX RA, EVO gazillions.... all minimal kit to reduce weight to the direct benefit of sticker price in some instances, but also weight. Even BMWs cynical marketing exercise that was the 330Ci Clubsport boasted weight reduction by a couple of KGs soundproofing removal.

Now, I think something does need clarification. We need to compare Hondas Type-R with BMWs M-power. In this instance, both are quite focused on performance, and I don't think you can say one is more or less than the other. Someone mentioned the NSX was soft; an NSX-R is NOT. A 545i is soft - a V10 M5 with 7 speed SMG is NOT.

Hondas Type R range are lower down the price chain than M-power. So it's a bit unfair to compare Accord-TRs to equivalent price 328s when they were designed for different things. The TR is of course going to be more performance orientated. Comparing the bread&butter models, it could be argued that the BMW is more performance-orientated... how many standard Accords do you see out on a trackday compared to 320i etc - is this to do with the driver profile or the car? Is it only because of RWD?

And regarding the Focus comments - you can't get a Focus to power oversteer out of a roundabout, but you get them to trail brake into bends with the tail out more than a 318i, and they are just as much fun to pedal along in my opinion. I had a FANTASTIC drive from Castle Combe to Thruxton one wet April in a 115bhp TDCi.

 

Well said TJ. I should have read you're thread before I responded to Andy's since you'd already covered most of my points.

You also can't get a 318 to power oversteer out of a roundabout unless it is very slippery out, which was my point.



Edited by Peter Fenwick
Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2006 at 07:06
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

 I would like my 328 back

i thought you mite at least given the honda a few more months peter

sorry i just had to throw that one in

but yes you are indeed correct .you have got a lot of car for your money .yes an M3 would be better but in a real world we are limited to our budgets

its a dogs world out there
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