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dutch View Drop Down
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Points: 438 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2006 at 15:50

"How much do you know about drivers hours"

probably more than you think i know enough to be within the law whilst im driving here and across europe.          ;           ;           ;

 recovery drivers are exempt so they can drive as long as they like. most white vans are under 3500kg. this is so the employers don,t have to pay lgv wages and they don,t have to present the vehicle at a vosa test centre, they only require a class 7 test. most cars as far as i am aware are also tacho drivers hours exempt. obviously these people don't get fatigued. 

 
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Points: 1212 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2006 at 16:07

I also drive a big white van for our business, and my greatest concern is the fact that anyone can jump straight out of a car and into a van (under 3500kg) without any further training. As has already been said, it is a good thing the government are offering training for van drivers, as I for one would gladly take it.

Now, the SPECS system I am not so enthusiastic about. They have recently fitted this system to most of the M77 outside Kilmarnock, and it is amazing how neurotic you can get about watching your speed. The limit is 70mph, but I kept my speed to somewhere between 60 and 65. Safe, you may say, but the flipside of this is that I ended up checking my speed every thirty seconds or so. I spent a greater proportion of the journey checking and regulating my speed, than I did watching out for other road hazards around me. How can this be safe?

Speed is only one aspect of road safety, not the ultimate defining cause of accidents.
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livvy View Drop Down
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2006 at 16:28
Originally posted by dutch dutch wrote:


Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


"How much do you know about drivers hours"

probably more than you think i know enough to be within the law whilst im driving here and across europe.          ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;           ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;           ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;

 recovery drivers are exempt so they can drive as long as they like. most white vans are under 3500kg. this is so the employers don,t have to pay lgv wages and they don,t have to present the vehicle at a vosa test centre, they only require a class 7 test. most cars as far as i am aware are also tacho drivers hours exempt. obviously these people don't get fatigued. 

 



Clearly not as much as you think you know with the definitive statement you made

Originally posted by dutch dutch wrote:

but wvm or any other car driver can drive for as long as they please without getting fatigued


There are as I say British domestic rules that have to be adhered to even if you are exempt from EEC rules.

The people exempt from British domestic rules are:-

Ministry of Defence vehicles

Police & Fire brigade

Private driving for no commercial use

Commercial use that stays within 50km radius of base & for less than 4 hours.



No exemption means British rules apply even if EEC rules don't.

So wvm drivers (or even recovery drivers) who manage to qualify for EEC exemptions, but don't qualify for Bitish domestic exemptions are still subject to British domestic rules.


Check the report on work related collisions that I gave a link to earlier. It details that it's LGV drivers who suffer from more blameworthy collisions. The why's & the where fors matter not, but as they do it is being addressed (& those who can train them.)






Edited by livvy
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2006 at 16:33
Originally posted by Doive Doive wrote:

Now, the SPECS system I am not so enthusiastic about. They have recently fitted this system to most of the M77 outside Kilmarnock, and it is amazing how neurotic you can get about watching your speed. The limit is 70mph, but I kept my speed to somewhere between 60 and 65. Safe, you may say, but the flipside of this is that I ended up checking my speed every thirty seconds or so. I spent a greater proportion of the journey checking and regulating my speed, than I did watching out for other road hazards around me. How can this be safe?


The ability to be able to drive within speed limits (in other words with only periodic checks of the speedo) is a basic requirement that even learners can manage.

Sounds like they did their job though.

Originally posted by Doive Doive wrote:


Speed is only one aspect of road safety, not the ultimate defining cause of accidents.



I agree it is only one aspect of road safety, but excessive speed is still the largest single contributory causation factor in fatal collisions.
In light of that what else is the ultimate defining cause of collisions when nothing else is present in as many ?


Edited by livvy
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Doive View Drop Down
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Points: 1212 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2006 at 16:53

What causes collisions? Lack of concentration.
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livvy View Drop Down
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2006 at 16:55
Originally posted by Doive Doive wrote:

What causes collisions? Lack of concentration.



Still shown as a causation factor in less fatal collisions than speed though.
So you wouldn't call that the ultimate defining cause on that basis would you ?


Edited by livvy
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Doive View Drop Down
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Points: 1212 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2006 at 19:07

Lost: 1x sense of irony. If found, please return to Mr Livvy.
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Points: 10053 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2006 at 22:23
Originally posted by Doive Doive wrote:

..and my greatest concern is the fact that anyone can jump straight out of a car and into a van (under 3500kg) without any further training..


IIRC on my licence (will be different on new ones I guess) I can drive a upto a 7 tonne twin axle non-articulated lorry with a trailer.. a moped without L plates and a motorcycle upto and including 125cc with L plates. But i can't drive a Robin Reliant since you have to do a an extra bit to drive a three wheeler or something.

Like the old law that says you could ride a big bike on L plates as long as it had a sidecar (usualy a springer), knew a couple of lads who had 600cc bikes on provisionals.
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 06:31
It used to be upto 7500kg & it changed to 3500kg for new licences issued after 1/1/1997.
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Points: 6484 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 07:00

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

It used to be upto 7500kg & it changed to 3500kg for new licences issued after 1/1/1997.

Really?

Well I got my photocard license after 1997 and it states I can drive a vehicle up to 7.5tonnes.

Nigel has made this point before but when I checked my license it is the same as it always has been.
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Points: 10053 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 07:15
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

It used to be upto 7500kg & it changed to 3500kg for new licences issued after 1/1/1997.


A sensible move in general, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable driving upto 14 tonnes (inc. trailer) of vehicle after passing a standard car licence.

The CBT (or DL197 to people like me who remember) is compulsary now to anyone who wants to take a moped or 125cc bike on the road, whereas I don't neeed one - I still took the course for the experience. Something which should be made part of the standard car driving licence - after all you can't fail it as it's not an exam but it makes you aware of what's going on around you. I certainly felt an improvement in my driving when I got back in my car. I did think about doing an accelarated bike course afterwards - but I've no intention of buying one so I didn't bother in the end.

What are others oppinions on making a DL197 part of the standard driving test?
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Points: 6941 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 07:18

changing to a photcard licence, or a change of address isn't renewing your entitlement to drive...strange but tru.

Should you have to renew your entitlement, you will loose thse groups.

I believe, but mat be corrected by livvy, that even with these groups you can't use them proffesionally unless you've passed the extra training.
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 07:34
Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

changing to a photcard licence, or a change of address isn't renewing your entitlement to drive...strange but tru.

Should you have to renew your entitlement, you will loose thse groups.

I believe, but mat be corrected by livvy, that even with these groups you can't use them proffesionally unless you've passed the extra training.



For instance with the vocational licence in the D1 category.
You have to take the medical & pass the D1 test to drive D1 vehicles (mini buses with more than 8 but no more than 16 seats in addition to the drivers seat) for hire & reward purposes.

For private purposes (not hire & reward) a normal D1 on your licence would suffice.


Edited by livvy
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Points: 6941 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 07:41

The last time I drove a 7.5 ton tipper truck I thought I was a bit tounge in cheek.

It was the day before my entitlement ceased, and the truck had a tacho fitted, my only experience of driving anything tacho class was in the forces ( fuel tankers), and we didn't use tacho's ( military exemption I imagine), although I did hold a HGV 3 licence ( to enable me to drive these on the public road) although that had been issued by the MOD, not the MOT.

I was using the truck for my own private use ( so believe I was exempt from needing a tacho), but had I have been paid for driving it I think I would have needed to use the tacho, is this correct ?
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Points: 10053 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 08:01
Yep I think so (commercial vehicle). I think there are some exemptions where tachos aren't used, I was informed that vehicles carrying perishable (sc?) goods don't need one, but that was about it.
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 08:04
Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

The last time I drove a 7.5 ton tipper truck I thought I was a bit tounge in cheek.

It was the day before my entitlement ceased, and the truck had a tacho fitted, my only experience of driving anything tacho class was in the forces ( fuel tankers), and we didn't use tacho's ( military exemption I imagine), although I did hold a HGV 3 licence ( to enable me to drive these on the public road) although that had been issued by the MOD, not the MOT.

I was using the truck for my own private use ( so believe I was exempt from needing a tacho), but had I have been paid for driving it I think I would have needed to use the tacho, is this correct ?



M of D are exempt from EEC (hours & tacho) requirements & British Domestic rules (hours & written records).

If you were driving 7.5 tonne GVW tipper, the only uses that would exempt you personally from  EEC (hours & tacho) requirements would be that you were carrying materials & equipment for  your  use in work within 50km radius of your base provided that  driving was not the main activity (ie you are not  a delivery driver for instance).
OR
Non commercial carriage of personal goods.

Other than that you personally would need a tacho.

There are lots of other exemptions, but unless you state specific circumstances I won't know whether they apply to you. The two above would be the most usual exemptions.


Edited by livvy
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Points: 6941 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 08:13

Cheers livvy, it won't ever apply to me again, my entitlement was removed in 2000, and without a change of heart on behalf of our government ( to make us like the french for example) I will never be allowed to drive these vehicles again.

I am actually considering getting a French licence, although it will mean some grief for me, it would enable me to stick two fingers up at our lot.

 
Best Wishes

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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 08:14
Originally posted by Rhys Rhys wrote:

Yep I think so (commercial vehicle). I think there are some exemptions where tachos aren't used, I was informed that vehicles carrying perishable (sc?) goods don't need one, but that was about it.


Perishable goods isn't an exemption.

Milk collection from farms is.
Carrying live animals from a farm to a local market or back is also.
There are loads of exemptions from EEC rules, but very few from British Domestic rules.
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Points: 10053 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 08:25
I stand corrected,

'ere Biggles, you planning on turning Frenchie then? Is this due to your many trips over there to bring back personal baccie supplies lol?

Are French licences valid over here in Blighty being your resident country - or are you planning spending more time over there.
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Points: 6941 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2006 at 08:36

as a euro citizen, I can hold any euro licence
Best Wishes

Nigel

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