secondhand car market - is it quiet?

Guide is that the car was interfered with...

Either it was clocked incorrectly or secondhand modules were fitted..

Dealers as a rule will not touch cars with the red dot..

BMWcare

bmwcare@eircom.net

Back on topic.

We finally sold my wife's Citroen Picasso. Well, more like gave it away. 8600 in the end.  Took well over 2 months i think.

I have a friend selling a mint 2004 Nissan XTrail. She's practically giving that away! (Around 22k)

milltown wrote: bmwcare wrote: Guide is that the car was interfered with... Either it was clocked incorrectly or secondhand modules were fitted.. Dealers as a rule will not touch cars with the red dot.. BMWcare bmwcare@eircom.net I was about to post asking if what I'd heard about a dealer being able to check the mileage with the key was true, when I saw this. If I may ask an obvious question: The spare key for my car would not be near the ignition for months on end so is always likely to be a few thousand miles shy of the actual mileage. Assuming this is updated when the key is put in the ignition, what is the point of storing the info there in the first place? Maybe I'm missing something obvious but it's late!

To answer your direct question - why?
It's to check what's in the EWS module. The dealer uses a keyreader for this. This is all about warranty - lets say you have a problem and it's a warranty job - you hand over your key to the service department and go have a coffee...
They read the key, note the mileage, start the car and bring it in - and read the key again. If there's a difference that can't be explained - you lose your warranty - period.


It's a bit involved - and CAN be got around. I'm obviously not going to explain that here...

The theory is that the Mileage is stored in the EWS [immobiliser].

1. When you insert the key in the ignition the mileage in the EWS is written to the key. This is always the highest mileage and does not reflect what is in the Cluster [IKE/KOM] or Light Control Module [LKM/LKZ]
2. Most checks only include the LKM and not the EWS or Key.

Using your example - whatever key started the car last will have the highest mileage stored on it. So, if reading the key - the dealer puts the key in the ignition, turns it on, then off... Then reads key.

This information is directly accessible from the EWS module, but, to my knowledge the Dealer tool [GT1] can't access it directly - I may be wrong about that...

I check the EWS module directly. Newer models, E60/E90 use a different system which I'm not totally up to date on...

The hidden one - in Autobox [EGS] on a lot of E39s - the dealer CAN'T check with the dealer equipment...

However, it must be stated - ALL of these CAN be tampered with to show incorrect mileage - just because a mileage verification check "passes" it's not 100%. But most of the characters that are doing it are doing it for profit and will not/can't spend the extra to do a complete rewrite of modules.

As an aside, I don't think service histories are worth the paper they're written on... It's so easy to obtain one... Previous owners are often complicit in it too - so you can't believe them...

Also, a serious amount of cars are tampered with "the other way around" - they're clocked forward... Main reason is BIK - I've got one Mercedes customer that has a S320CDi showing over 100K but I know for a fact that it has less than 20K done... He did it himself for a BIK reduction...

Or, the company employee who gets the opportunity to buy the "Company Car" [not as common as it once was] - the employee clocks it forward to buy it cheaper, then clocks it back to less than it had to get more for it...

It's fu*king endless...

What are we left with?? Judge the car on the car alone. I'd always prefer a well minded one with 100K than one that wasn't with 50K...

BMWcare
bmwcare@eircom.net



Edited by bmwcare

bmwcare wrote: As an aside, I don't think service histories are worth the paper they're written on...

I always ring the service manager at the servicing dealer to cross check the history in the book against the dealer records.  Its still not a completely foolproof method of verification (still open to unscrupulous abuse) but its one of the pieces of information to consider in deciding it a car is right.

No method of checking is 100% so you need to look for a series of indicators that fit together to say yeah nor nay to buying any particular car. 

The hardest part for most people is to walk away from a car that has question marks, especially if the price is "attractive".  Generally in going to view a car people have made a bit of an emotional investment in considering the pro's and con's of the specific example and why it suits their needs and to walk away empty handed is phsycologically difficult.

bmwcare wrote: Dergside wrote: I always ring the service manager at the servicing dealer to cross check the history in the book against the dealer records.  Its still not a completely foolproof method of verification (still open to unscrupulous abuse) but its one of the pieces of information to consider in deciding it a car is right. Agreed, but I meant that "genuine" service histories can be got... Like everything - it depends on how thorough they were... One exception would be if the previous owner travelled a lot... And every stamp was by a different dealer.

I'm confused, how can a "genuine" service history be got? For this to be the case someone at the dealer must be handing out service stamps and then updating the computer system to say the car has been serviced when it hasn't. This in itself will leave a financial hole in the dealers accounts as they will not have recieved the money for a service that the computer system says was carried out. I have however checked a cars history and found that the dealer who's stamp is in the book claims never to have seen the car, although I was told buy the service manager at one dealership that the computer system is not very reliable. I also know of one BMW tech who services BMWs in his own time and gets the books stamped at the dealership he works at.

One of the reasons I bought my car is that the history was both backed up by the dealer concerned (the same one since new) but also by a stack of invoices which must be a lot harder if not impossible to fake.

Dergside wrote: The hardest part for most people is to walk away from a car that has question marks, especially if the price is "attractive".  Generally in going to view a car people have made a bit of an emotional investment in considering the pro's and con's of the specific example and why it suits their needs and to walk away empty handed is phsycologically difficult.

Totally agree.


[/QUOTE]

Spot on, which is why many sellers lie or mislead in their adverts because they know that once the person is actually there they stand quite a good chance of selling it, especially if the buyer is buying a 'dream' car. I cannot count the number of BMWs that I have seen advertised with a Full BMW history only to find that half the stamps are from a speciallst.

Take a mate with you. As he is not emotionally involved in the process he or even she is far more likely to be objective about the cars condition.

"genuine" - meant appears genuine

Hole in accounts or not - a dealer system is only as good as the guy doing the IT...

A stack of invoices is a totally different matter - I'd agree with them [usually]

How many people get or have got a "fake" invoice - shedloads...

My original point still stands - If someone wanted to go to the effort and knew the right people they'd have everything to "produce" a history that would be backed up by phone calls to the dealer later...

I'm being the devils advocate here, so don't take offence.

Also, there are other issues - how about the E46 325i with 27K that had 2 stamps - one at 12K [OilService] and another at 26K [Inspection]. From 2 different [Dublin area dealers]. It had invoices, and was verified by phone calls. [I bought the car for a customer and they verified].
The last invoice showed a Cabin Filter & Engine Air Filter... When I was checking it before it went - both were filthy. Cabin you could [possibly] understand. But not the Engine one in 1,000 miles and 3 months...

Or... The X5 that had 90K done... Broke down & I was called in to fix it. Full history from new [original owner still had it]. He broke down in the "Wild West" and was loathe to let anyone except his dealer touch it... He showed me the book and explained his concerns.
While I was at it I noticed the fuel filter looked as if it was never changed... When owner came to collect he was "surprised". He searched and found chequebook stubs to back up the invoices and it was all present & correct... I cut open the filter in front of him and he went crazy--- it was the cause of his [expensive] breakdown. He sued both dealers in question as far as I know. How he got on I never heard.

If I was buying a car for myself I'd throw away the history and do a full InspII regardless. Retail customers and sites/mags have this "main dealer history is REALLY NECESSARY" in their used car guides. In my opinion that's totally crap... It can be right, but it can also be wrong...

BMWcare
bmwcare@eircom.net

I think the message here is the usual and sensible one of "Buyer Beware".  Believe little of what you are told, try and cross check and corroborate anything that you are told, if there are no conflicts then make a rational decision based on the information and the condition based on physical inspection of the car.  If there are any discrepencies walk away.  Cars are like buses and trains, it might be inconvenient to wait but there'll be another along in a while.

Paranoia can easily set in when the reality is that for every seller trying to screw you over there are a few legal, decent and honest sellers.  The trick is to try and exercise enough common sense and judgement to buy from the latter more often than the former.  Sooner or later we all get caught out by something we hadn't noticed when viewing or checking the car but you try to beat the law of averages. 

As regards servicing, I think we all have a story about something that should have been or that we asked to be done on a service and wasn't (and maybe charged for).  Service industries (auto or otherwise) by their nature are dependent on people and that gives rise to the possibility of error, omission or downright sharp practice.  Vigilence is required and complaints should be made when issues occur.  That way, its more likely to highlight to the vendors that there may be a problem in their systems or processes for providing the service.  If there are multiple occurrences and/or if there is an inadequate response to complaints made then vote with your feet.

Back on Thread.  316Ti Sold! THREE AND A HALF MONTHS!

Congrats ivanovoitch.

Don't know of any for sale but the 850is looks like a smashing car. Rading about them in BMW Car magazine at the moment.

lukeduke wrote: good news Ivan!!! i'm still waiting for calls for my beast!!! advertised since June!

Who the hell would want one of those Luke? Way overpriced. Just stick it up for €20000 and you'll sell it today.

Hope you do get what you want for it Luke. I'd love to take it myself. What are you going to buy?