633CSI 1980 VALUATION |
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
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With E Types it's more heresay than fact. The 3.8
was the better engine than the 4.2 but the V12 was better than either - lighter, much more powerful and smoother than the BMW V12. The classic car market is odd - the market is saturated with Series 1 E Types and I can see a maroon chrome wheeled (XJ steels, not wires) V12 FHC becoming sought after as something different. I mean - did Elvis do his best work in the late sixties? I think so, others disagree. With the 6 it's more about age. I went to look at a 1983 A plate 635CSi auto today. It's a teabag - inner wings completely rotten, bodged sills, balding TRX's (On M6 metric x spokes) so I'm going back tomorrow with £250 to try and buy it. Why? It's got very good bumpers, new wings and a host of other bits. It certainly isn't worth saving because a chrome bumper A plate 635CSi isn't worth a lot and most of them this age are sheds sadly. And when most of tjhem are junk, trying to get anyone to drive 30 miles to examine your minter for sale is hard work. So mention a 1980 6733CSi and I and most others will automatically assume it's a crate held together with patches and underseal, no matter how good it actually might be No doubt the owner of this A reg heap I'm going for tomorrow thinks it's a valuable classic though.......... Edited by 5KXO |
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
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What a great attitude you have.
The 4.2 series 1 E-Type convertible was the most desirable - it had more mid-range torque than the earlier 3.8, as well as an uprated clutch and gearbox with synchro-mesh on all 4 gears. This enhanced the drivability hugely. The V12 lost a lot of the desirable styling cues such as the position of the lights, and not to mention the grille, which is reflected in the used prices accross the entire E-type range. Where do you get your information from? |
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
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He's just being a realist (sadly).
It's not just the older Six's that people assume are rotten it's the later ones too. The number of people who ask me if I restored my Six then are all surprised when I say it hasn't been is quite high. The fact that Sixes rust & are pricey to restore just puts people off. When the car in question is as old as you then it's doubly difficult to tempt them. I agree with your thoughts about Ebay - everybody assumes a car bought on Ebay will be cheaper than everywhere else. Not sure why Andy thinks a Jag 3.8 is better than a 4.2 as the larger engine has more torque. The Series 1 1/2 E-Type had a number of improvements over the earlier car, better cooling, better gearbox, more room to name just a few. The earliest cars do look the more pure but interest in the V12 has climbed so much it's values are starting to eclipse the Series I's. eg. Classic Cars quote (for a "mint" private sale roadster), 3.8 ('61-'64)- £32500 4.2 S1 ('64 - '67) - £33500 4.2 S1 1/2 S2 ('67 - '70) - £27500 V12 ('71 - '75) £29500 Mind, they're still quoting a 635 as £2250 average, £5000 mint & £6500 dealer! Their values for the M635 are a bit more realistic at £6000, £10000 & £12000. But if there's only 50 left . . . |
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m3Cecotto
Bavarian-Board Forum Sponsor Joined: 29-September-2003 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 791 |
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There's not only 50 left. There were 524 made in RHD. There are "tales", but no evidence of some of these not actually making it to the UK, but going to other RHD markets. There are 24 in Australia - all exported from the UK, leaving a base of 500 here Based on old DVLA figures, Howard Walker reckoned that it is likely that there are about 300 RHD M635s left, but I think that might be optimistic. I know of 4 broken for spares or dismantled in the last year. The figure of 101 RHD Highlines produced has been suggested. On the basis of what appears to be the general survival rates, PHB10186's "I think that a good M635 Highline is probably the best of the lot, although all 50 or so left in the country are in the hands of peole that will keep them until the oil has run out!" is probably a fair estimate of how many M635 Highlines are left in the UK and of the owner demographic. The M635 is the same as all other sixers. They rust just the same and cost just the same to put right. Therefore, the same as other sixes, there are loads lying about in varying degrees of dismantling/storage. I'll buy any and every M635 that's for sale at £1500. If you don't want the one you know of, please put him on to me. If its saveable, I'll save it, if not it'll help keep others on the road and assist in paying for the body restoration of mine. |
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Horsetan
Really Senior Member II Say Neigh to Gatsos Joined: 11-April-2003 Location: Please let it be Ireland Status: Offline Points: 6381 |
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Make that 300, as you wrote..... I found a C-plated Alpine White one hidden away, and rusting, in West London a few months ago. Owner still says he wouldn't take less than five grand for it, even in its current bad state! Here it is:
Once upon a time, this same M635CSi was known to the BMW CCGB's "M-Register".....
You an' me both, pal! And I've got just about enough spare space on the drive to fit it in.... Edited by Horsetan |
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
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Attitude? I think you're one with attitude mate!
The 3.8 was a better engine than the 4.2, period. The 4.2 was designed to power the Mark 10 which was an enormously heavy (1900 kilos) car for which the 3.8 wasn't quite manly enough. The bores were too big and they suffered head gasket problems as a result and it never revved like a 3.8 despite the fact that both had the same 106mm stroke. Yes it had more torque but the E Type was not a heavy car (around 1400 kilos) and the 3.8 was more than enough. The XK engine was best as a 3.4 and the 3.8 was a bit of a stretch and the 4.2 too far. Jaguar knew this and that's why the V12 came about although they didn't have the dollars to develop it it time for the XJ in 1968. As Andy says, the classic car market is waking up to the fact that the V12 was the best E Type - a fantastic engine (the XK was just an old lorry engine by the seventies) and the wide track really fills the arches out. To me they look a lot better than the Series 1 Roadster which I never liked. A mate of mine had a Regency red V12 Automatic E Type FHC which was a lovely thing to drive, vastly better than a 4.2 2+2 I drove some years later. BTW I've had various Jaguars - a Mark 2 3.4 MOD and an XK150S 3.4 spring to mind as well as a couple of early XJ-S's (a great car). You want to talk about old Jags - fine by me! |
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
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Early E Types weight @ 1280 kilos, US spec 4.2
FHC 1320 kilos and the V12's 1500 kilos. |
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
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The reason the price of a late 635 highline is used as a yardstick is because, appart from an M6, these are the cars that attract the highest prices. Why? well it probably down to two things. Firstly later car are more likely to have less rust. As rust is the E24s biggest problem it stands to reason people will want a car with as little of it aas possible. Secondly BMWs are luxury cars and most of the people that buy them want the leather and the electrics. Ok so some of you are not bothered by electric seats and a leather dash but most of the people who buy these cars will be and they will pay more for a car with a higher spec. I don't know why but didn't a lot of people think that Jaguar spoiled the E type by fitting a V12? |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
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It's down to the purists again. Yes the Series I E had a cleaner shape but those spindly wheels! - lost in the arches. the S1 was also very cramped. The later version had more room thanks to a stepped floor. The SIII V12 roadster was based on the 2+2 floorpan so had a lot more room. The Old Guard turned their noses up a bit at the V12 because it was more GT than sportscar but the whole car was an old design by then anyway. If I could afford the fuel (& the car!) I'd have a V12! You forget how much bigger cars have got. My Six is actually 3" narrower than an E46 coupe but it's about 13" longer! I've just found my shoulders are too wide to fit in a TR6 . |
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
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My Boss has a TR6. It's ok but you can tell that by that time there were serious issues with the build quality at Triumph/BL. A bit too Beard & flat cap classic car enthusiast for me, but I can see why they appeal to some. |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
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LOL you're too young that's why! TR6's, MGB's etc appeal to men of a certain age & I guess I'm one! No beard but I do have a flat cap somewhere. |
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Horsetan
Really Senior Member II Say Neigh to Gatsos Joined: 11-April-2003 Location: Please let it be Ireland Status: Offline Points: 6381 |
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...and string-back driving gloves? |
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
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And AA membership. Sorry but almost anything
bearing an MG or Triumph badge is, to me, a sack of poorly made and badly executed junk. Cars like the TR6, MGB and Stag were crap 30 years ago and they have not got any better. Who the hell pays £10'000 for some ghastly MGB Roadster when you could have a nice R107 Merc SL instead or the most perfect 325i E30 Convertible. Who?? Classic car mags have a lot to answer for - it's time one of them stood up and said 'Sorry guys, but we were wrong. These cars are all utter sh*te" |
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
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BTW the 635CSi Auto turned out to be a 628CSiA,
Big Recaros in velour, only 2 good tyres and my God the inner wings were the worst I've ever seen. And the owner thinks it's worth £650.......... |
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
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Don't beat around the bush, just say what you think! Cars like MGs and TR6s are polular classics becuase they are cheap to own. You can get all the parts you need cheaply and although they are not that well built neither were a lot of their contemparories. My Boss bought his TR6 for £2500. It was a LHD import from California. He got it converted to RHD and had a few things done to it bringing the total bill to £3500. He's owned it for 3 years and other than regular servicing, tyres and some leather seats it's cost him nothing. Ok so he only does about 4000 miles a year and it's not a mint car, but as usable classics go it's pretty good. |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
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Actually, they have. These days they've all been rebuilt & to a far higher standard than when they were new. There are many improvements which have been developed to suit modern requirements such as 5-speed boxes, modern cooling systems, injection, heaters etc. True they weren't exactly cutting edge when they were new but what competition did they have? Apart from each other, the MGB & TR6 only had the Alfa Spider, Fiat 124 Spider & Lotus Elan as competition for small, cheap(ish) 2-seater sports cars. it wasn't until the MX5 that the genre took off again. The Stag was in a niche of it's own when new. Press reports tried to compare it to the SL but they were intended for completely different markets.
The person who want's a 2-seater sports car. Nice though the SL is, it's a different market. £10k is top price for a mint dealer chrome bumper MGB in pretty much concours condition. £7-£8k is a more usual figure. A quick flick through the dealer ads shows £16k+ for decent 107's. There's a lot of rubbish SL's around as my brother found out when he went to buy one. You'd have to search long & hard to find a good one for under £10k. As I said, these cars appeal to guys who remember them (fondly) from their childhood. As a kid, I used to sit in the TR6's in the Triumph dealership next to my dads office & dream of driving one of my own. Sure the experience now won't live up to the dream of 37 years ago but there's no harm in trying. Cars like this are bought by the heart not the head. |
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
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You can buy a decent condition, usable MGB for round £5k. I know because I know someone who sold one for that and it was a very nice car. Well above average. What kind of SL can you get for that money? Also an SL will cost you a lot more to run.
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
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The same cars always come up in these debates, the interesting thing is that there are no true classics of today, and so as the years go on, the same classics keep getting older. 15 years ago a TR6, MGB and Stag would have been talked about as a classic option - and now...pretty much the same story. Is the MGF going to be a future classic? I dont think so. What about a BMW Z3 or Z4? Very difficult in my oppinion. The practical classics of today are the VW Golf MK 2 GTI 8V, Mazda MX-5 mark 1, and other bits and pieces such as CRX VTECs and MK1 Toyota MR2's, and possibly even the Smart ForTwo and Roadster in a few years, but mostly Japanese. The Boy racer/Chav movement have ruined many cars' chances of classic status by either crashing them, or making them look like the Starship Enterprise with blacked-out windows. It will be interesting to see what happens to Jag XK8's and the like as running costs keep driving the old school practical classic man to other things. I think as running costs keep rising as fast as they are now, or even faster, 2 wheeled transport will become ever more popular - with SUV's dying out the fastest. The BMW C1 moped will be one of the most appealing practical classics if this happens. |
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
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Modern cars aren't designed to grow old gracefully. All the electronics will kill them off when they start to go wrong.
It's a good point though, what will todays youngsters be looking to buy as a weekend classic when they hit middle age? |
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Brucey
Really Senior Member II Joined: 07-March-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 744 |
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'PS2' I expect... cheers
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~~~~~~~ Brucey ~~~~~~ |
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