633CSI 1980 VALUATION |
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
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I'm not so sure. By the time an E65 is a really old car many garages will have Diagnos which is very quick to pinpoint a faulty electronic component. In 1987 Vauxhall said that by 1992 all Vauxhalls would have fuel injection. The motor trade went into panic. Imagine your village mechanic looking into the engine bay of a 1978 5 Series and seeing L Jetronic. Mechanics were scared of the Mini for God's sake. But the motor trade adapts. Solutions to problems are found - what really kills cars is low resale value versus the cost of repair which might not be that great. When an R-S plate Renault Laguna is only worth £2-300 in the trade, who will spend £400 fixing a head gasket? At least owners of the current 6 Series won't be welding up rusty bits in 10 years! |
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
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Kick a man when he's down! Wait 'til I see you at Gaydon!!! |
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
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I think some more modern cars that are getting close to classic status now are the MK1 MX5, 205 GTI, Mk1 and 2 GTI, E30 325 sport, Escort cosworth, Sierra RS500, Clio Williams, E30 M3 to name but a few. Cars that are around today that I think will become classics in the future are the Mini (unfortunately), Clio V6, Clio 172/182, Mk2 MX5, Most recent MR2, MGF & MGTF, Porsche Boxster, Focus RS etc Despite modern cars complicated electronics their superior build quality will more than make up for this. Gone are the days when you need to worry about replacing the sills on your car after 5 years and rebuilding the engine after 100,000 miles. |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
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Certain E30's are already classics, like my 316 Touring
Whilst having high performance or a drop top does help is isn't a requirement for classic status. There are a large number of "classic" cars (or old bangers as Andy would call them) which were just ordinary saloons in their day. Where have all the Mk 3 Cortinas gone? Modern cars may have superior build quality but they aren't as rebuildable. Worn out 6 or 8 cylinder engine in your BM? That'll be a new block & pistons at least. No rebore or honing & rings for those motors. A casual enquiry on the price for a new motor for my Audi A6 2.4 V6 was "around £10k" !!!! The mechanic opinioned the car would be scrap when the engine was knackered unless I could find a 2nd hand replacement. A new M30 from BMW is around £2500 to £3000 & will last (with care) 250,000 miles or more. |
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
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Most new engines in german made cars should last at least 200k unless not looked after. Even a ford engine these days will probabaly go round the clock twice if it has regular maintenance. So engines may be pricey but many cars should last for a lot of years without having to have a new engine. Mind your point about the cost of an audi engine may be why certain german cars have failed to reach the status many people think they should. After all an E24 is a hugely expensive car to maintain, whereas an equivalent age MG is beer money to keep on the road. I remember reading an artical about a TR4 that had done 400k. I was stunned, until I read that it was on it's 4th engine rebuild and it's second body restoration.
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
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I used to know a chap with a Mercedes W123 5 cylinder 3.0 diesel, that did 490,000 miles mainly in London traffic. All the mechanicals were original, except for the auto transmission (which was rebuilt once). Ok so the rear diff was a bit loud - but it still managed to go 100 Mph and return about 35 Mpg on the combined cycle. The car was eventually knicked and never seen again. I am not sure that engines longevity has changed all that much, if anything a Merc does less now than it used to, so do VW engines and most of the non-Japanese lumps. I think that the Japanese have come first in the build quality race - Ok so 20 years ago when the metal protection processes were not great they rusted, but now the boddies are fine, and the engines last and last, probably better than anything else on the road. It was not uncommon to see a Nissan Bluebird with 250-300K, and you can easily find Honda Accords, Mazda 626's and Toyota Carinas/ Previas with 200K still going strong. This is why Toyota are the largest car company in the world, and produce about 6 million cars annually. I had a Polo as a rental car 2 years ago fitted with a 1.2 3 cylinder engine, you had to thrash it to keep up with traffic, I couldnt see that lasting 200K, although this was probably the worst engine to come out of Germany these days (or wherever they make Polo's now - Probably Hungary or Bulgaria or somewhere like that in Eastern Europe). I aggree that repairs are what kills old cars, or even fairly new ones these days. There are a lot of cars that get scrapped just because the auto boxes fail, and are uneconomical to repair even when 5-6 years old nowadays. If you speak to anyone who knows their automatic transmissions, they will tell you that a Lexus has the best box in the world, and there's Toyota again! I must confess that I do not really know how the big german engines compare with what was made in the 80's, such as the modern BMW and Merc turbo diesels, and 6 and V8 petrols. I have heard a lot of negative views though. |
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
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I agree to a point. Mercedes buld quality has gone down and reliabillity has gone with it. VW also does not appear to be making cars like they used to. However cars like Fords and Vauxhalls now have much longer lasting mechanicals that they used too. After all a Zetec engine will easiliy do 150k these days without requiring anything more than normal servicing and a cambelt change. However if you go back to the 70's you'd be lucky to get 100k out of an engine without it requiring a rebuild. A mate of mine has a 3.0 Reliant Scimitar and it's Ford engine and box are frighteningly unreliable and have cost a fortune to keep running. Add to this the fact that a lot of bits are not easilly availible. Your point about the Japansese is spot on. They really do make the most reliable cars. I knew a bloke with a Nissan Bluebird that had 200k on the clock. He sold it to a Minicab firm who said that they had seen up to 500k out of Bluebirds. Rubbish to look at, bland to drive but runs for ever. |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
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Peter - I aggree with your comments about Fords 100%; they have improved hugely over the last 10 years. My first car was a Vauxhall Cavalier Mark 2 1.6 - I thought it was gastly, and It never ran properly on anything except 4 star. It pinked all the time, and it used almost as much fuel as the 635. I remember in 1985 my father bought the Cavalier Mk2, while at the same time his father bought a Mk 2 golf 1.6 auto, and a Honda Accord 2.0 12V EXI auto. The Golf was about 10 years in front of the Vauxhall, while the Honda was another 10 again. We still have the Golf, it has done about 180K. The problem with Ford and Vauxhall (and this still applies today really) is that they spend a fortune initially, but then don't spend any more developing the model, they just replace it with another car that cost a fortune to develop about 7 years later. Take the last generation Omega, that cost about 700 million to develop, and was never significantly updated, and it suffered terribly against its competitors. Now look at the Ka - thats a bastaard creation of a biscuit tin, I don't care what anybody says! I have to say that I would not buy a Vauxhall - what's the point when I can buy Japanese for about the same money? The same pretty much goes for Ford, although I beleive that they are considerably better than Vauxhall, especially the turbo diesels. I would buy a Focus or Mondeo - but they are still too common for me, I like something a bit more original and individual. |
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
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Really? I had one from 1999 - 2001 and did 63'000 miles in 2 years with absolutely no trouble whatsoever - probably the most reliable car I ever had including the 320d that replaced it which needed a turbo, air mass meter, lower wishbones, rear wheel bearing and headlight lenses in 10'000 miles. It's reliable because it has the Puma floorpan which itself is derived from the Mark 3 Fiesta and thus there's nothing to go wrong. Likewise the engine is a fuel injection version of a 1976 Fiesta 1300 Valencia engine. Pushrods, DIY tappets etc. Yet it would cruise at an honest 90-95 mph and return 40 mpg no matter how you drove it - put another way, it would very possibly get from London to Edinburgh before your old 635 if both cars stuck to under 100mph. It was never going to appeal to everyone, but the Ka is 10 years old this year and still looks as modern as it did in 1996. It has a new modern engine but it's not yet had a facelift - the mark if a successful car design. Your analogy about Fords is wrong - cars like the Focus, Mondeo and Ka have always been competitive till the end - nobody actually made a better small/medium hatchback than the 1998 Focus and the current Mondeo (unchanged since 2000) is still an excellent car which drives as well as anything else in it's class - including Audis and Mercs. |
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fozzymandeus
Really Senior Member II Joined: 01-February-2006 Location: Sunny Rhyl Status: Offline Points: 607 |
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The mrs' first car was a 1.2 clio (mk1) that was a much more technologically advanced car than the '99 fiesta 1.3pushrod that replaced it.
Sorry but that 1.3 engine is a complete dead weight - I'll never forget hitting the rev limiter whilst overtaking on a country road in it and thinking I was going to die. No rev counter didnt help! I mean where is the rev limiter on that ghastly thing? 4500?! The Ka is a lovely piece of automotive _design_ but, as with alot of ford product it's a terrible piece of engineering! The Ka is only competetive to 1st car buyers, none of whom know (or care) very much about the technology they are buying. They want reliable, basic transport that does not cost very much. However I do think that Ford take the mickey with some of their product - the fiesta's passenger vanity mirror was a rectangular piece of plane glass mirror just stuck to the sun visor! No moulding, nothing, just sharp edges! Talk about engineering down to a price. And that 1.3 pushrod engine also powered my first car - an ancient 1.3 mk3 escort. Truly horrible! Used a litre of oil every 100 miles with 100k on the clock. No recent ford product will get the classic status older stuff has - like Escort Mexicos, Mk1 Granadas etc as they are too ordinary. Seriously, if there's ever a following for the non performance Mk3 Escort then I'll be amazed. (racing puma notwithstanding - volume counts for something here) Talking of the classic cars of the middle aged men of the future (I hope I'm still one of those at 28) make mine a Merc 300sel 6.3!! Edited by fozzymandeus |
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
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My Wife has a 2001 X reg 1.8 Focus Zetec and it is a great car. Ok so it's not as nice to drive as my 530, but £ for £ it's hard to beat. |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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fozzymandeus
Really Senior Member II Joined: 01-February-2006 Location: Sunny Rhyl Status: Offline Points: 607 |
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I was driving a 1.8 Ford Fungus when a certain Scania pilot decided that it needed 12" removing from the wheelbase.
Was an okay car - as you say not as nice to drive as my (at the time) 316 but the episode did put me off it a bit!! |
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Andyboy
Banned User Joined: 04-June-2003 Status: Offline Points: 707 |
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Odd - no 1.3 Ka I've ever drove (about 10-15 as hire cars) has ever had that problem. I can remember tailgating a 1.6 Vectra on the M1 after he cut me up, two up with a load of photographic equipment in the boot. We had it off the clock near Loughborough! When the Ka came out I had a press car and myself and my passenger were racing a Laguna on the M6. Again, off the clock (an indicated 120 which is a real 105-110) with the engine screaming it's t*ts off . The Ka weighs less than the Fiesta don't forget - and the Ka unit is the Endura E which although ancient is a much better unit than the old Valencia in the Fiesta. Mine never used any oil between changes, even at 63'000 miles. It took a lot of stick - Nottingham to Southampton in 2 hours 20 one night (on a promise!) Ford engineering crap? It's as good as anything else these days IMO. The days of the Escort and Sierra have long gone. As for modern Fords never being a classic - look at the Mark 1 Escort. Even a basic 1100 has a following and it was the most average, ordinary car around at the time. In time, a 1994-98 Scorpio will have a following (like Mark 4 Zephyrs do now). RS Focus? Street Ka? Even the early K-L reg Mondeo Si in that horrendous bright lime greeny yellow with the stick on plastic arches and the 7 spoke RS wheels will, one day, have interest value. Edited by 5KXO |
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fozzymandeus
Really Senior Member II Joined: 01-February-2006 Location: Sunny Rhyl Status: Offline Points: 607 |
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I found a Mk3 Escort 1.3 on ebay for sale with an opening bid of £300 so maybe I have to admit defeat here. Consider my hat eaten.
I still hold out that Ford cuts more corners with what it offers customers than most other manufacturers. The new Fungus is outclassed by the latest Astra IMO. (GM has got it's act together all of a sudden, except for with Saab which remains in the wilderness ). Let's just state that I am not a fan of the blue oval. |
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
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"Seriously, if there's ever a following for the non performance Mk3 Escort then I'll be amazed." There is - its the smashed up old Astra of the same year at the banger race chasing it! I knew the Ka comment would cause controversy, and as much as dislike the thing, I do agree with your comments - basic, cheap, reliable all yes. Get to If I was in any accident above 5 Mph, I would prefer to be in my 6, than a Ka, despite the Ka's airbag! I don’t dislike it because it is a Ford Ka, I dislike it because it is outperformed by just about everything else on the road now, and please don’t tell me that 90-95 Mph is an honest cruising speed in a Ford Ka, because it clearly is not. The Mk1 Focus was a very very good car to drive. I have a Mazda 323, and the ride in the Focus put that to shame. But - Most of the early Mk 1 Focuses look shabby now, and unfortunately Fords do not age well with time. If you want to do a huge mileage in a short time, you probably can’t get better than a Ford. If you want to do a low mileage over a long time, you can’t do better than a Honda Civic. The current German cars are in between. Edited by phb10186 |
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
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Also: I knew somebody who used to work in Dagenham for Ford, and he told me that Ford scrapped the interior carpet colour choice on the MK 3 Fiesta from 3 to 1 to net a saving of 7p per car. make of that what you will. Whether they have the same attitude now I don’t know. The incredibly built Focus C-max IMHO is not that incredibly built. |
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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Brucey
Really Senior Member II Joined: 07-March-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 744 |
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-anyone would think all our 6ers work perfectly, and we have nothing better to do with our time than get all worked up about various species of dagenham dustbin etc..... -strange world, huh...? cheers
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~~~~~~~ Brucey ~~~~~~ |
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sharkfan
Advanced Newbie Joined: 15-April-2006 Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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LMFAO Sharkfan |
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
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These posts are coming thick & fast. Can't keep up with the replies.
Er, here goes: Japs are very good - I've had 3 Hondas including a Mk 2 CRX Fords went through a bad period but they seem to be on a good run right now. Of course they're built down to a price! My wifes Fiesta is very accomplished for what it is. Streets ahead of the Micra & those Frog crates. The Ka was intended to be a city car for trendy young things (& Andy!). It's a lot better than you'd think. Vauxhalls are crap. The Astra is better than a Focus???? Don't make me laugh! |
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
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The new Astra is supposed to be very good although I've never driven one. The old model however wasn't a patch on the mk1 focus. My dad has one and I really can't understand why he got it over a Focus. All cars are bult to a price, well almost all. |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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