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    Posted: 06-April-2007 at 19:32
It's aimed at bikes but it wouldn't take much to allow this to apply to cars too... what planet do these nutteres live on?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IamSpartacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-April-2007 at 19:42
Madness!

Enjoying the comments section though...

What planet are they on?


Last Updated: 12:01am BST 17/03/2007

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A bill currently before Parliament could have a devastating effect on motorcycling, as Frank Melling reports

Motorcycle bill roars on towards disaster

We all know that well-intentioned actions can sometimes bring unintended results. But few events in motoring history would be as spectacular as the potential fall-out from The Off-Road Vehicles Registration Bill proposed by MP Graham Stringer (Labour, Manchester Blackley).

Motorbike
Wipe out: to combat the anti-social use of mini-motos by making it an offence to own any bike without a number plate would criminalise bike racers and enthusiasts

That Mr Stringer's basic idea was harmless enough is beyond dispute. Annoyed by feckless youths irritating his constituents on mini-moto bikes, he felt that if all these tiny motorcycles had to carry number plates then the police could arrest the miscreants and the nuisance would stop.

Many thought that he was being naive at best. The bikes were already being ridden illegally, and simply adding a rear number plate wasn't going to help. It was a shallow and simplistic proposal, but it was harmless enough, so no one took much notice.

As always, however, the devil was in the detail. Or, in this case, the lack of detail. The Bill is drafted in such a way that it covers all motorcycles. In simple terms, it insists that every motorcycle should comply with the Road Traffic Act (RTA).

There is absolutely no exemption, and the DVLA in Swansea insists that a registration mark can only be issued to an RTA-compliant vehicle. So whether it is Valentino Rossi's 2007 MotoGP Yamaha or a classic racer, an Edwardian museum exhibit or a gold-plated custom show bike, the proposals mean it will have to be fitted with number plates and made RTA-compliant or face confiscation and destruction.

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The police already have such powers, although they are rarely used. But Mr Stringer's Bill would make it a criminal offence even to possess an unregistered motorcycle, of any type or description, under any circumstances. Even if the bike were an objet d'art in your bedroom, it would have to be registered.

The Bill as it stands would therefore kill British motorcycle racing at a stroke. It is impossible to make most racing bikes RTA-compliant (consider the aerodynamic consequences of fitting a number plate to a 200mph MotoGP machine) and it would be an offence to race any that was not registered. Custom and classic events would be equally devastated and museums would be liable to prosecution if they displayed any bike that did not carry a DVLA registration. What's more, the Bill makes no mention of compensation for confiscation. One can only imagine the reaction of someone who has a £100,000 racing bike in the garage if the authorities try to remove it.

The political parties are in disarray about what to do with this ill-conceived and poorly thought-out piece of legislation. Mr Stringer himself seems confused and bemused by the reaction. His response to my questions was to ask whether I was "pig ignorant" about parliamentary procedure, then terminate the conversation.

Alistair Carmichael, the Lib Dem spokesman on transport and MP for Orkney and Shetland, was willing to listen but equally confused. This is particularly worrying because the Lib Dems are the main supporters of the Bill. Mr Carmichael feels that a system of exemptions would be the way forward. This is topsy-turvy, given that the exemptions would have to cover everything except illegally used mini-motos.

On March 2 the Bill was passed by a large majority at second reading, and only when I repeatedly pressed the Conservatives this week did transport spokesman Chris Grayling declare that they would oppose it at third reading: "It is certainly far too wide-ranging," he said, "and while there is a case for strong action against mini-motos, this is a sledgehammer to crack a nut." The Department for Transport also claims to oppose the Bill but refuses to say why, and none of the other parties bothered to respond. Such complacency is disappointing, given that the future of an industry is at stake. Is it any wonder we end up with bad laws?

The best way forward is surely to scrap the Bill entirely. It is an ill-conceived, simplistic piece of legislation that does not deserve to reach the statute books. Is a yob illegally using a mini-moto really going to add a number plate so that he can more easily be prosecuted? Will his long-suffering neighbours rest easier in the knowledge that museum-bound Edwardian tricycles are being road-registered? One wonders what planet our politicians inhabit.

If the Bill cannot be stopped altogether, then Telegraph Motoring wishes to suggest a simple amendment, viz: "All vehicles used in a place to which the public have free and open access must be RTA compliant and carry a registration plate, unless they are participating in an Approved Event." An Approved Event is a licensed motorsport event - car or bike - and already covered under current legislation.

You might look at this amendment and say, with a degree of justification, that it merely reiterates current law. Yet if such an amendment is not included in the Bill, the future of motorcycle sport in Britain looks bleak at best, with a maze of bureaucratic red tape for racers, custom bike builders and museum owners. At worst, the five-page Bill would wipe out motorcycling as we know it.

I would add one final comment. Those in the car community who think that this affects only bikes and is therefore not their problem should be very careful. Once motorcycle sport has been destroyed, how long do you think it will be before four-wheeled motorsport is targeted? If the Bill were to include quad bikes, which are also capable of causing a nuisance on the wrong hands, then cars, karts and the like might eventually end up in exactly the same position as motorcycles.

Mr Stringer's Bill is now entering the committee stage. Please write now to your MP at The House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA, and ask him or her to oppose it, for the sake of justice and common sense.

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Isn't this just typical of our government today. there are far more important issues that they cannot cope with. it's about time we had a say in what these over paid people get up to after we have voted them in and pay their wages.
Posted by Stephen Withers on April 3, 2007 10:40 AM
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They should rename our parliament the Jim Henson's Workshop as it seems to be full of Muppets. Honestly, what sort of muppet decided on this new legislation and how come its got passed the second reading? We need to fight this now! It's about time we stood up and got counted instead of letting the Govt do whatever it wants.
Posted by eric chitty on April 2, 2007 3:36 PM
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Can this Bill be extended so baby strollers also require formal registration or else be banned from shopping centres? This would harmonise the proposal with public sentiment and intellectual laziness of the Parliament for allowing a Second Reading.
Posted by Guy Stanford on April 1, 2007 1:53 AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-April-2007 at 21:09

There was an article in the motor cycle mag a couple of years ago about putting a chip in to the number plate so you could not change plates or anything at all and your speed etc could be monitored.

There was also the thought about putting speed limiters on as well so if you were overtaking anything and happened to go over governed speed the limiter would cut power.

The government wanting to dictate how we should live, drive, and ride

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dutch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-April-2007 at 18:28

'The government wanting to dictate how we should live, drive, and ride'

cutting power when overtaking! this should read

The government wanting to dictate how we should live, drive, and ride and DIE!!!!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSK328i Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-April-2007 at 18:57

Read something in the IAM magazine years back now they tested such a device.  It was worked on GPS somehow IIRC, linking your position in relation to the speed limit of that road, and ensuring your vehicle engine management system wont allow the car to exceed the speed limit in force.

This became leathal however when they conducted on overtaking manouvere as you speed will only end up being a touch faster than the slowing moving vehicle, leaving you exposed to danger as all of a sudden you find you have no more speed to get past etc.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-April-2007 at 19:58
Which, in IAM terms, means the overtake wasn't "on" in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thepits Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-April-2007 at 21:40

Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

Which, in IAM terms, means the overtake wasn't "on" in the first place.

which suggests that overtaking is only 'on' if it doesn't involve breaking the speed limit

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-April-2007 at 22:20
Absolutely correct old pitsy poo's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thepits Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-April-2007 at 22:30

Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

Absolutely correct old pitsy poo's

hmmm, not wanting to drag up old IAM threads (but I will if I must  ) I'm sure I read somewhere about an 'advanced' drive where the limits were not exactly ignored, but the driver was advised to drive "reasonably quickly"?

Are you saying then that if some-one is doing 60mph by their speedo, which we all know over-read, so in reality is probably more like 54-55mph, some-one should only overtake them at a true 60mph?

Sounds like an awful long time to be on the wrong - i.e. Dangerous - side of the road to me



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-April-2007 at 22:43

In which case Simon, the overtake isn't on.

Speed limits are simple, they are simply that, a limit, to exceed this limit you need an exemption, which you can never have, you can at best only have mitigation.

I'm not going to be two faced and say I never exceed a posted speed limit, but I do so in the full knowledge of what I'm doing.

To put forward arguements against limiting devices that involve breaking a posted speed limit are absolutely pointless, & play straight into the hands of the cretins that want these limiters in the first place.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thepits Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-April-2007 at 22:56
Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

In which case Simon, the overtake isn't on.

Speed limits are simple, they are simply that, a limit, to exceed this limit you need an exemption, which you can never have, you can at best only have mitigation.

I'm not going to be two faced and say I never exceed a posted speed limit, but I do so in the full knowledge of what I'm doing.

To put forward arguements against limiting devices that involve breaking a posted speed limit are absolutely pointless, & play straight into the hands of the cretins that want these limiters in the first place.

I think we both agree that speed-limiting devices on ALL vehicles are stupid and dangerous

 

and to break the speed-limit is also stupid, but not always dangerous - and also necessary in some cases.

 

but of course it can never be condoned  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-April-2007 at 23:02

I can't think of a case where it would be necessary, but I'm sure you'll come up with something where anothers driving has forced you to do so.

Breaking a speed limit is an "absolute" offence, just breaking it makes the offence complete, there is no requirement to show danger.

You'll find these limiters as difficult to argue against as scameras.

Its always easy to be wise after events have already happened, but if drivers had shown more restraint in the past, and we weren't killing something like 10 people a week on our roads, then perhaps we wouldn't find ourselves in this position.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dryle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-April-2007 at 09:21
but i read in the sunday time last year, the chief constable in charge of trafic in central england quoted that speed is not the problem it is people not reading the road and taking in the environment before overtaking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-April-2007 at 11:17

Your correct Dryle.

We all know you are correct, but even given what you say, what reason can you give for wishing to exceed speed limits ?

Without a legal reason for wishing to do this, what logical arguement can you give against limiters & scameras ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dryle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-April-2007 at 11:20

nigel,

i am not condoning speeding but there are times when you may have to go over the speed limit as in a sunday driver dawdling along at 30mph in a 60 zone and there is a short time span to go past safely, so long as you read the road and take in all detail to ensure what you are doing is safe and not dangerous to others.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dryle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-April-2007 at 11:27
there is no logical reason against limiters/scameras however they should be placed in areas where accidents occur, over here they are on motorways whereas they should be on accident blackspots and we only ever have about 4 cameras over here with film in them so its russian roulette
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-April-2007 at 11:37

They are on motorways over here too, and the need for accident statistics has been removed, they can put them anywhere they want.

Your example of a sunday driver is typical of the arguement that plays straight into the safety cretins arms, although I know you don't intend it that way.

The sunday driver doesn't have to drive at the speed limit, it is a limit, pure & simple, the max speed you may legally drive on that road if you've judged all the other factors allow it, if you missjudge any factors, you are yourself guilty of driving without due care & attention.

If you cannot overtake this sunday driver without either exceeding the speed limit, or compromising safety, then the overtake isn't on, so as a responsible driver you'd be expected to stay put until such time as any overtake becomes a safe prospect.

Impatience on your part, which either breaks the law, or compromises safety, makes you as bad, if not worse than the sunday driver.

There may be many legimate reasons the car in front has chosen to travel at that speed, notwithstanding the obvious one that he/she just wants to.

Driving is a team sport that many people with varying skill levels take part in, when you can mix with all these skill levels, safetly, your a good driver.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dryle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-April-2007 at 11:57

my wife was pulled a few years ago by the boys in blue for not keeping to the speed limit, speed limits are there to be adhered to by both keeping to it and staying within it.

i also know a chap that was pulled for overtaking on a continuous white line and he argued that the car in front kept stopping/braking for no reason and he spoke with the garda and was let off with a caution as the garda in question agreed with him.

i do agree that there is no need for excessive speeding and if you want to arrive early then leave earlier, but at times there may be unmitigating circumstances that require you to speed, as in getting to hospital and cant wait for an ambulance you call the police and they may give you an escort, i know this may not be a good example but all i can think of.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dryle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-April-2007 at 12:09
Originally posted by Bigian Bigian wrote:

There was an article in the motor cycle mag a couple of years ago about putting a chip in to the number plate so you could not change plates or anything at all and your speed etc could be monitored.

There was also the thought about putting speed limiters on as well so if you were overtaking anything and happened to go over governed speed the limiter would cut power.

The government wanting to dictate how we should live, drive, and ride

hibernian insurance tried to bring that out a while ago for young driver to reduce premiums, they fitted a tracker and could tell if you went over the speed limit, dont know that if you went over for long periods and you insurance was cancelled or just premiums went up.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-April-2007 at 12:32

I can't really comment on the Garda's take on things, although there are Garda officers that are part of the forum who could.

I have known occasions where the British police have pulled people for travelling slowly, doing 20 mph wouldn't be a good idea if your travelling on the M6 for instance.

The speed limit, in British law, is just that, its a limit, it is not a target.

I'm actually on your side in this "chat", but I do work in my own time for the IAM, I do from time to time get the chance to mix with the "other side" (safety cretins), and over the years I've gotten used to their counters to arguements like the ones posted on this thread.

They are a very well organised and very powerful group on the mainland.

Heres one to make you smile, there was a move a couple of years ago, over here, to increase the motorway speed limit from 70 mph, to 85 mph.

It was defeated, but it wasn't defeated on safety grounds, the safety cretins knew they had no chance on safety grounds, as the motorways over here are the safest roads, and also the roads where the speed limit is most often broken, so they defeated it on envoiromental grounds, extra fuel useage and noise pollution.

Best Wishes

Nigel

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