RS4 beats M3, Autocar 18 July

OK, my two pennorth! *coughs to clear throat*

I have never driven a true 'M' car infact my 540 is the highest performance car I have ever driven and given I am only 28, that's not too bad, maybe when I'm old and bald (and kicked the kids out!) I will be able to afford such a car. For now, you will have to listen to an unexperienced but educational guessing point of view! (a what?? )

Firstly, you have to ask yourself, what is the driver of the new M3 going to do with his M3? Take it on track days? take his family shopping? take it on holiday abroad? business trips up the motorway? race spotty herberts in their saxo's off the lights?

The chances are, and my point being, every owner will be different. Some owners will buy it as their 'weekend car' and they will probably have an audi A4 1.9 TDI as their company car so the weekend drive will be enthralling. Then you will have the owner who can afford an M3 but only as his everyday car, which means he'll have to be able to fit his two kids and the wife as well as a bit of shopping in the boot. He'll drive it to work and show it off and race the saxo kids from the lights, i.e. the car will probably do most every day driving chores in a very satisfactory manner.

Cars like the M3 are made for the family guys who need a reasonable boot and 4 seats but crave the power of a sports car and cannot afford a Ferrari or Lamborghini as their weekend car!

The magazines, when they get a 'special car' they choose a special location, usually a winding road through a mountian with no traffic, which of course most of us drive every day

The M3/M5 are both jack of all trades type of cars and until the RS4/6 came out, who else made such a beast?

BMW, even on their base model cars, their dynamics still have to be 50/50 weight distribution which to me is not a manufacturer who takes their business lightly.

The best kind of test would be if they took say 20 people who were in the M3/RS4 market and gave them an M3 to use as their daily car for a month then the RS4 to use for a month and get them to write the report, we'd see some real life results and not just a speculative write up from a journalist who spent a few hours with the car.

There see, that didn't hurt did it!

Mike

Edited by 540 V8

No you're not, see above post...

Folks

I have to say I am rather amused by all the speculation on internet forums about the car and how people have come to conclusions on the strength of brief introductions to the car that were not even conducted on the type of roads most of us will face.

It seems that BMW have produced a car that has moved the game on considerably from the E46 version, and yet are being slated for not producing a car that the last CSL proved is not what the market in general wants.

People need to face the fact that except for the E30, M3's are bought often by people who want a "tick all the boxes" supercar, one that will be at home pootling around getting the shopping, taking the kids to school and can also be used on the Ring or occasional track days if necessary.   It has never been the fastest car (if that was the case we would all be driving Evo MR FQ CX PV FAH 360-420 Mk V or whatevers), or the best handling, or the most spacious, but it does all of these things pretty well while providing a great level of comfort and build quality. 

And those who moan about the CSL, well theres one coming!!!  And you should be thankful because without this "base" M3 as a volume seller, your car would probably be priced far higher than most of the people complaining about the fact that this car is not raw enough proved last time around they wouldnt be prepared to pay anyway.

Picture the scenario: BMW decide to release just a hardcore CSL version of the car, to please all the "enthusiasts" but due to the development costs of the car being spread over limited production numbers it costs £75k.  The same people bleating now about this car would then balk at that and get a porsche instead, even though the last csl came within 8 seconds of the GT3 at the ring despite being £30k less. 

FInally, a guy from Evo (who has driven the car) posts regularly on M3post and has repeatedly said that he doesnt know what these mags are on about steering feel.  He has said he thinks it was down to the road surfaces they were driving on.   I can relate to this, since people said the same thing about the E46 M3 but I think its fantastic.  Also in terms of refinement or "dilution" apparently the new V8 is much more vocal when pressing on than in the E46.

Don't get me wrong folks, people are entitled to their opinion, and I will reserve judgement myself until I have test driven the car, but I don't honestly recall seeing so much nonsense written about a car since I have been browsing internet forums [not referring to anyone here btw, just forums all over the place, including pistonheads, m3forums, m3post, bimmerfest, e46fanatics etc etc etc]. 

Mick

b318isp wrote: One issue Autocar had was that the M3 didn't look agressive enough compared to the RS4. I can't see that myself. The RS4 does looks good, but it doesn't look as much a sports car as the M3.

Got my copy of Evo this morning, they have done the same test, in Spain with the New M3 and their long term RS4, haven't read it fully just a quick scan through, but they seem to have found the same,

"During our time with the car's it's the Audi that attracts the most attention." Evo Magazine Sept 2007 No 108.

Sporty1 wrote: They sold everyone....... eventually.

True, but the market baulked at the extra cost for the marginal improvements over the std M3, hence that they sold everyone... eventually.  The reality was that the CSL dropped rather a lot of the premium it cost in the first 12 months or so when the  speculators cars came back to the market.  It was relatively poor value for money compared to the std car because the std car was so good.

I'd contend that the same will hold true of the new M3.  The performance of the 335i comes very close in many respects and the market won't pay the significant premium for the M3 for long (I'd guess 18 months or so).  This will especially hold true if the economic situation changes and/or the environmental conscience gets stronger.  Don't underestimate the effect of the latter.  For evidence look at how the market situation for petrol X5's has changed over the lifespan of the just replaced model, from lifestyle choice to social pariah.  Look also at how that is spreading to the overall market for SUV's and how they are more being considered anti-social. 

635CSi wrote: Sporty1 wrote: "Disagree, the BMW marketing machine is pulling another master stroke..... diluting the M3 to appeal to a bigger market and then bringing out a less is more, that includes more £, M3  i.e. a CSL/CS model for those that want a more driver orientated model." .........They did a CSL version of that which was better but not a by a significant margin and it carried too much of a premium over the regular M3...................

Having driven both standard E46 M3 and CSL I can tell you that the CSL is so much better and more driver focused than the standard car.

Don't know if you've compared the two cars but that my opinion.

They sold everyone....... eventually.

I read the Autocar report with interest.  I think BMW have been caught out a little by a few things. 

Firstly they have released a substantially more complex car and heavier car with "just" 20% more power than the outgoing model at a time when the economic and environmental expectations in the marketplace are changing rapidly and the ongoing horsepower race between the brands is becoming socially inappropriate.  They may just be releasing the right car at the wrong time and have missed the wave this time.

Secondly, they have already built a car that provides 90%+ of the experience and performance of the M3 that is more "sound" environmentally and more usable (the 335i - or 335d if you don't mind the slushmatic only gearbox).  The fact that its 30% cheaper is a bonus.

Thirdly, people are asking why the cars have to continue to get more lardy with each generation and beginning to feel that manufacturers would be better served in focussing more attention on weight saving.  This achieves two things, improved fuel efficiency (playing to the rising social conscience) and improving the dynamics of the car (reduced weight means less effort in trying to counteract the effects of physics).  People understand that weight has increased because of all the additonal safety equipment and toys that are being fitted but if the same level of creativity is applied to this aspect of development as has been applied to improving the power and economy balance of performance cars then the results should be achievable and dramatic.

Sporty1 wrote: "Disagree, the BMW marketing machine is pulling another master stroke..... diluting the M3 to appeal to a bigger market and then bringing out a less is more, that includes more £, M3  i.e. a CSL/CS model for those that want a more driver orientated model."

On second thoughts, wasn't the E46 M3 raved about by the magazines when it was launched?? This sort of leads me to think that if they didn't pull that masterstroke with the E46, they probably aren't going to with the E92 either. They did a CSL version of that which was better but not a by a significant margin and it carried too much of a premium over the regular M3. What I think has happened is that BMW didn't expect the RS4 to be so good, BMW probably just decided to leave a winning formula alone with the E92 and were unfortunate in their decision. The M3 has been getting 4/5 stars in every review I've read, I'd be expecting at least 4.5/5. Add to that it has been beaten by the RS4 in 2 grouptests by Auto Express and Autocar...

Edited by thepits

I somewhat agree with original post, but I think some of the percieved softening of the M3 has been calculated into it - by marketing, to reach the widest appeal as possible and rely on some of the M3 legendary status to get the punters in. Make no mistake, the new M3 is obviously a fabulous machine and far more car than I could ever hope to get a handle of, but the gap back to its competitors has been significantly reduced thanks to the RS4. The M variants are looked upon as "flagship' models by some peope and they will be bought just for that, so light steering, creature comforts are all they are looking for.

It's also obvious from all reviews so far, that BMW have left a lot in reserve for a more focused vaiant, CSL'esque. The gap in performance between the E46M3 and CSL wasn't enough to justify the price tag and wasn't exactly a runaway sales success, they will make sure that "gap" is going to be there this time.

I haven't been able to reconcile the fact that with all the shouting of the new V8 being a lighter engine than the prevoius S54, the E92 M3 is still a heavier car than the E46 ever was. Even with a CSL to come out, the original M3 still has no successor. The real proof of the car will be in a group test, which it will win - as it'll be track focused, personally I like the look and statistics of the B3 and hope that it's included in any group test.

larzyh wrote:  I haven't read the Autocar test but in all other tests I've seen the reviewers seem suitably impressed.

Has any other publication actually reviewed the M3 with its rivals yet?

Thought all reviews had been in isloation so far.

Let's see what happens when the C63 AMG joins the party.

 

larzyh wrote: Long live the M3.

Totally agree....although, it would be nice for it to live up to the 'The Ultimate Driving Machine' tag.

Edited by Sporty1