840Ci - VRT query |
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wiseguy
Advanced Newbie Joined: 29-January-2008 Location: Leitrim Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Posted: 03-March-2008 at 11:48 |
Looking at bringing in an 840Ci from the UK before getting hammered with the new VRT rates in July. Have seen two on examples, both pretty identical - 840Ci Sport, 75k miles, silver - except one is a late '97 and the other an early '98, so only a few months diff in age. Asking prices are also similar. Checked VRT amount on ROS and am getting this: 97 OMSP €13849 VRT 4154 98 OMSP €21307 VRT €6392 Does this difference seem excessive to anyone else??? |
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Ballcock
Senior Member II Joined: 07-September-2006 Location: Galway Status: Offline Points: 208 |
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That's just the hugely flawed system I'm afraid. As long as the Revenue's way of calculating OMSP is non-transparent, then you will get these anomolies. In this instance buying the '97 is a no brainer (assuming the same credentials as the '98). With the 8 series buy solely on condition & history anyhow. |
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II Joined: 16-May-2004 Location: Mid West, Ireland Status: Offline Points: 4000 |
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I don't think that either figure overstates the open market selling price of the cars but it does highlight an anomoly. Other current anomolies are that a '99 e36 328i coupe costs more in VRT than a same age/mileage e46 328Ci. Similarly, a '01 520i SE costs more in VRT than either a '01 525i SE or a '01 530i SE with the same age and mileage. The thing about anomolies is that you can either use them in your favour when choosing what car you want or be a victim to them by not checking beforehand. |
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beemerchris
Really Senior Member I Joined: 08-December-2006 Location: Dublin city Status: Offline Points: 388 |
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Sorry but I cant see how you would get 21tsd for an 98 840Ci I know lads who try selling M cars and don't get that money for them. 14tsd sounds ambitous but doable Guess given the cars are equally good and the service history checks out go for the 97 one (except the year difference on the plate is worth the extra vrt for you) Chris |
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Chris
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wiseguy
Advanced Newbie Joined: 29-January-2008 Location: Leitrim Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Exactly BC. How could be there nearly a 10k difference for one year for a car that's already 10 yrs old! I'm not worried about having a newer reg otherwise I'd be driving a new Polo or some such rubbish |
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Ben O Brien
Really Senior Member II Joined: 12-August-2004 Location: Limerick,Ireland Status: Offline Points: 1205 |
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Another such anomoly ive noticed lately is with E36 M3's. My 94 3.0 Convertible is still the same 1819euro it was last year, a 96 M3 Evo Convertible last October was just over 2200.... its not 1100... a 96 M3 Evo Coupe is just over 1000 euro as well while a 94 3.0 Coupe is 1819euro... Its crazy really. Just goes to show they pluck the figures out of the sky! |
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99' 740iL
99' 728i Sport 98' E39 M5 - Avus Blue, Dec Car! 96' M3 Saloon - Estoril Blue 94' M3 3.0 Convertible 91' E34 M5 - 3.6, Macau Blue *E36 M3's Breaking* |
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II Joined: 16-May-2004 Location: Mid West, Ireland Status: Offline Points: 4000 |
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Avoiding the thorny question of whether an e36 M3 or an e31 840 is a better car, remember they went towards very different audiences and their original costs new were about euro40k apart. Even now, they have a different owner profile (Kin excepted!). Most M owners wouldn't consider an 8, and vice versa. 840's at this stage fall in to probably 3 distinct categories - the first is the nikasil engined 4.0 cars, probably to be avoided. The second is the 4.4 cars that have patchy history or have been abused, again, probably to be avoided. Finally the minters that have all the paperwork, history, provenance and a 5 figure mileage. UK values for these will range from under stg5k to 12k for a minter. One decent repair bill for a cheap one would probably make a dear car look cheap in comparision. UK prices probably have the biggest impact on the asking prices here because sellers can't price their cars at a premium to what someone can bring one back from the UK for. Alternatively, the optimists will try to price their car up to a level close to an import cost. Obviously, the sellers of the '97 840's on Carzone would disagree with your valuation of the '97 cars as each of them is priced a good deal higher than the OMSP that the VRT folks have. The '98 car on Carzone is only a relatively small amount below the '98 OMSP. If these OMSP's are unrealistic then point the finger at the sellers asking unrealistic prices rather than the VRT people. For a car with such a statistically small sample they have to go on the asking prices as a basis. On the other hand, if the cost of buying in the UK and returning with it exceeds the cost of buying locally, then consider buying locally. As has been said, use the anomoly of the '97 car versus the '98 car by buying a '97. Note too, there is no difference in VRT between manual and auto cars or between Sport and non Sport models. Edited by Dergside |
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wiseguy
Advanced Newbie Joined: 29-January-2008 Location: Leitrim Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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The cars I have seen are both around the £8k mark, and seem like good examples. In terms of on the road cost here: Given FX rate of €1 = 75p 8000/.75 = €10666 + 4154 (VRT) = €14820. Cheapest '97 on carzone is €17950 although I expect you could probably get at least €1500 off without too much bother. But you'd still be better off bringing one in from across the water.
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II Joined: 16-May-2004 Location: Mid West, Ireland Status: Offline Points: 4000 |
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The key point I was trying to make is that the VRT figure, and hence OMSP,for a '97 is reasonably accurate, if anything it understates the OMSP because you can't buy one here for that price and you can't import an equivalent for it either. If the OMSP overstates the value of any given car then evidence of asking prices below the OMSP from sources such as Carzone, AutoTrader, etc. should be supporting information for an appeal after the event. The concept of VRT has been kicked around here a few times. If you suspend judgement on the fairness of VRT as a tax and concentrate on the accuracy of the OMSP then by and large the OMSP that they come up with is not a million miles off the reality and discrepencies usually understate the amount of VRT. A lot of people moan about the VRT and OMSP amounts, not because they don't reflect the real market values of the cars in question but because the total cost of landing a car from the UK exceeds what the person would like to pay in total. More often the underlying cost of the car in the UK is the reason why the sums don't add up but people pick on VRT as the cause because it is the last cost in the process of landing the car here. |
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beemerchris
Really Senior Member I Joined: 08-December-2006 Location: Dublin city Status: Offline Points: 388 |
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I always would look at UK cars for this type of vehicle as they are normaly better serviced, it's easier to verify history and buyer protection is better. Seeing the prices mentioned here however it might be worthwhile to check them might be a good one and getting some euros of might make it a bargain. However 8series are a financial nightmare if they proof to be a lemon eg they use edc shocks which are eyewatering to replace. @ Dergside: I didn't base the statement about the M cars and their price on which car is better. (Remember when I was faced with that decision I went for a M540 6speed instead an M5) I believe that it's easier to sell an M as they have a broader following hence there are more potential buyers out there. I think that both 8 series or M3/5's are dificult to sell at the moment. I also think that an 840/850 is always the better buy second hand as their engines don't need 6k+ rpm to get them going and they get less trashing hence wear is less. I consider carzone as a bit of a laugh as the prices there are sometimes a mile of what would be considered reasonable or archievable. Same aplies to pistonheads probably to do with cars are advertised there for free. Chris |
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Chris
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wiseguy
Advanced Newbie Joined: 29-January-2008 Location: Leitrim Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Dergside, I agree with your point on the OMSP. I have brought in 3 cars over the last few years and each time the OMSP quoted by the Revenue has been lower than the cost of an equivalent car here or the final imported value. As you say, the OMSP quoted for a 97 is reasonable. There is no point moaning about VRT so I don't - if you don't do your sums right in the first place, you've no excuse if your imported car turns out to cost more than you thought! |
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II Joined: 16-May-2004 Location: Mid West, Ireland Status: Offline Points: 4000 |
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You are probably right there Chris. The point I was making was more that the audience for each probably doesn't significantly overlap, either when new or secondhand because they are such different beasts. However, the smaller number of 8's for sale is probably broadly balanced with the smaller number of potential purchasers so from an economics point of view, supply and demand are reasonably balanced. For that reason you'd expect there to be some differential in price between similar age and mileage M3's and 840's because the 8's cost about 50% more than the M3 when new. The price differential is likely to be a good deal less than the 50% figure but it would be expected that a differential should still exist. Re. asking prices on Carzone, you may be right but because the majority of the population buy from dealers, and Carzone has a very large representation among dealers then the prices probably repesent the typical retail prices (minus the usual haggle factor). Private sellers will often price their cars closer to the higher end of the asking prices than lower, even though it means that their cars are being compared with dealer standard cars with the backing that usually goes with that. Irish people that do not buy from dealers want to have a fairly wide differential between what they will pay for a car privately compared to dealer prices (the gap between real dealer and private seller prices here is a lot wider than in the UK for example). Private sellers that over price their cars will usually be greeted by the sound of the phone not ringing and eventually drop their prices. The most interesting thing about Carzone is watching the private sellers asking prices dropping over time and one final price drop will usually result in a quick sale because some potential buyers have been waiting for price to drop to a certain level. I did this when buying my 330Ci. It was initially priced at over euro19k and I noticed it but didn't look twice at it for that price and it sat there for a while. Price dropped a couple of times by small amounts until the seller took a significant enough chunk off the price to catch my attention and a deal was done quickly. |
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Ballcock
Senior Member II Joined: 07-September-2006 Location: Galway Status: Offline Points: 208 |
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I would disagree with you on this. OMSP's can be way off in many cases. I was recently looking into bringing in a '02 525 Sport manual with 150K miles (and priced accordingly in the UK). The OMSP for this was €14484 whereas if it was an indentical car with only 50k miles then the OMSP is €15754. Realistically the 150K miler was probably worth far less than €10k and even less to the trade....... A cars mileage is one aspect that does not get enough consideration in OMSP calculations by Revenue. |
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II Joined: 16-May-2004 Location: Mid West, Ireland Status: Offline Points: 4000 |
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That's a reasonable point Ballcock. The example you quoted is an extreme example because of the level of mileage but it is true. However, the flipside of this point is equally true and worth considering. Low mileage values do not get hammered in the way that they really should so the best "value" is in low mileage examples for any given year. For example, I bought a '98 e36 323i as an interim car for Mrs D after selling her 318Ci last year. It had 48k miles (with history) and good spec and the VRT was pretty much the same as if the car had double the mileage so the landed price difference for me buying a specimen low miler over a higher mileage example was buttons. People in this country buy down to a price when importing rather than buying up to a condition level. Notice how many imports advertized have starship mileages (or at least should have). People would rather buy a slightly newer high mileage car than an older low mileage one when importing but wouldn't touch a car with such a mileage if buying in this country. Because I do a lot of mileage it suits me to buy low mileage slightly older cars and rack up the miles than to buy newer higher mileage cars. When selling time comes the cars still have relatively low mileages but the end result to me is that I could run one of my cars for a year and afford to sell it for half what I paid and still cost less than a years depreciation on the newer example. Generally though, because they are generally specimen cars at the start I do a lot better than that come resale time. Wiseguy - sorry for going a little bit off topic on this! Edited by Dergside |
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wiseguy
Advanced Newbie Joined: 29-January-2008 Location: Leitrim Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Well, things have moved on and I've put a bid on the '98 car (fleabay) so I have no choice on the higher VRT. I've read somewhere thought that the new rules from July won't apply to imported cars, so they will still be assessed on the old cc rules - anybody aware of this? |
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