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jimf671 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-January-2009 at 13:56
Originally posted by W4YNE W4YNE wrote:

don't know what you are tryin to do but i have 325 springs and shocks


Ahah! That is extremely interesting. What model year? What mileage?





[BTW MBW1, I have just ordered M3 offset bushes and E30 control arms.]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-February-2009 at 01:27
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:


195 on 7" is exceptionally well braced.

I have near enough the same sidewall height as with the original 205/60 except that the geometry is slightly different.


It's certainly pushing the fitment boundaries. But why sacrifice 10mm of  tyre width (about 900 sq mm per tyre of footprint) and subsequent grip for a small imperceptible gain in sidewall rigidity?

True, a 195/65 has the same sidewall height as a 205/60 but that's on a 6.5" rim not a 7". Stretching it to a 7" rim is on the limit for no practical gain or are you saying you know more than the tyre manufacturers who suggest this?

I haven't checked all prices but 205/60 x 15 Goodyear Hydragrip's were £60 each. 205/55 x 15's on my E30 were about £5 more. 195/65 x 14's were higher again. No cost saving there.

When BMW wanted to improve things they went for a 235/40 on a 7.5 x 17" rim Later Evo's had a 225/45 on a 7.5" front & 245/40 on an 8.5" rim rear. Obviously totally over the top for a 318.

Still, despite detailing all your frankly oddball ideas & past experiences in cars of compromised design (Hillman Imp ?) and repeatedly ignoring questions about what exactly you're trying to achieve, you still haven't said what it is you intend to do when all this work is done.

Is this a road car or a track car?

Does this car have to meet some obtuse motorsport class specification?

Why else would you try to get the smallest engine size possible & then try to reduce outright grip in an attempt to "improve" handling balance?

If it's a light, agile, somewhat tail-happy sporting saloon you're after, why not go for an E30 or E21. In fact, get a 2002. That has all the qualities you're after & best of all, they're cheap.

The Holy Grail of chassis design and performance modification is to maximise the transfer of power to the road with the maximum efficiency. Too much grip for the power & weight is counter productive as is too little grip.

Frankly is it seems as though you just want to change things for the sake of changing them.


Edited by AndyS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-February-2009 at 11:05
Wide tyres are for racing cars. On road cars they have a place in countries with perfect paving and blue skies but elsewhere they are as much a marketing exercise as anything else. I'm a truck and rally guy so my understanding of power and traction may be different from that of others.





[Compromised design: that once held every single prod saloon and mod saloon lap record in its class at every UK race circuit as well as being a successful rally car. "Strength of a works Escort and the traction of an Alpine-Renault."]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-February-2009 at 21:40
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

Wide tyres are for racing cars. On road cars they have a place in countries with perfect paving and blue skies but elsewhere they are as much a marketing exercise as anything else.

Who's talking wide tyres? It's been more than 20 years since a 205 section tyre was classed as wide.

As for 'perfect paving & blue skies', I guess you havent seen the rest of the UK.

Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

I'm a truck and rally guy so my understanding of power and traction may be different from that of others.

Obviously. A tarmac road is still a tarmac road irrespective of which side of the border it's on. Some are better laid and/or in a better state of repair than others but the same rules of physics apply. More grip is better.

Sure, very low profile tyres don't like potholes but then you don't need them since you're only dealing with 115bhp not 300bhp.

Since you mention rally cars - ever seen a rally car in tarmac trim? Are they on skinny tyres? No. they're lowered, stiffened & with as much wide wheels & rubber as the regs will allow.

Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

[Compromised design: that once held every single prod saloon and mod saloon lap record in its class at every UK race circuit as well as being a successful rally car. "Strength of a works Escort and the traction of an Alpine-Renault."]

The key word here is once & that was a very long time ago. Useless as a road car since it would overheat at every opportunity. Compromised because the chassis design couldn't handle the power of a lawn mower let alone the souped up fire water pump they stuck in it's backside. The Mini may have had a geriatric motor but at least it went round corners rather well (in standard form too).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-February-2009 at 22:45
Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

... It's been more than 20 years since a 205 section tyre was classed as wide. ...


Physical laws are unaffected by the passage of time, unlike marketing.


Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

ever seen a rally car in tarmac trim?


Not recently, but then there hasn't been much rallying recently. Rallying is when you dont know what's round the next corner: that affects the way the vehicle is set up and what tyres you need.


Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

... it would overheat at every opportunity.


Not with me they didn't. That is because I read the manufacturers instructions and used the correct coolant and the correct fuel instead of the plain water and 2-star that everyone else used. Thirty five and half pence a gallon for 5-star: those were the days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-February-2009 at 01:39
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:


Physical laws are unaffected by the passage of time, unlike marketing.

Jim, you seem completely unaware of tyre developments since the 1960's. You are also under the impression that every other development in car design since then is marketing spin. It isn't.

In rallying, drivers have known what was around the next corner since the 60's thanks to co-driver's with O/S maps. This is where you seemed to be firmly stuck with your rose tinted glasses.

There's a huge difference between shoddily designed cars of the 60's and modern machines. You just don't need to rip them apart & modify everything, it will all work out of the box.

Why don't you actually try driving your 318 instead of making oblique references to your engineering skills (such as sawing one coil off your springs ) & knocking BMW design as "marketing".

Since you don't think anything more powerful than a 318 can hack it on Mickey Mouse roads you'll find the cars capabilities in standard form to be well in excess of your needs. After all, the chassis was designed to cope with 200bhp in standard form & over 300bhp with a few tweaks. Almost anything you do to the car will have a negative effect.

Just accept that BMW design engineers know more than you do.

You don't need to change anything & can keep your money for fine scotch or whatever.



Edited by AndyS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Fenwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-February-2009 at 10:26

and pull the fuses on the ABS.

Just make sure you don't have a crash that you don't walk away from then. If your insurance company discovered you had done this they would not pay out on your policy. On top of this the Police might be interested in speaking to you

Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-February-2009 at 13:15
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

and pull the fuses on the ABS.


Just make sure you don't have a crash that you don't walk away from then. If your insurance company discovered you had done this they would not pay out on your policy. On top of this the Police might be interested in speaking to you



The intention is to submit a modified vehicle report.

It is no secret that some police traffic departments have done the same thing and switched off ABS so I am not expecting trouble from that quarter. Also, a major body of evidence now exists for Risk Homeostasis with ABS, so there is no overall safety advantage.


I respect the truth told to me by a free-rolling wheel connected to my hands without interference.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-February-2009 at 13:27
Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:


... the chassis was designed to cope with 200bhp in standard form & over 300bhp with a few tweaks. Almost anything you do to the car will have a negative effect.


This is one of the finest chassis still on the road and yet there is a monster-sized market for suspension parts alone. Just look around this forum.

It now looks like nearly everything done this year will use a BMW standard E36 spec of some kind: and some thought and calculation.

And what's this about power. What do I need it for?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kbannon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-February-2009 at 22:24
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

The intention is to submit a modified vehicle report.

Are you not already paying enough on insurance?

Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

It is no secret that some police traffic departments have done the same thing and switched off ABS so I am not expecting trouble from that quarter. Also, a major body of evidence now exists for Risk Homeostasis with ABS, so there is no overall safety advantage.
They also have completed advanced driving courses.
As for the ABS and safety (possibly not the best source but you can disprove it if you wish!)
Quote

Efficacy

A 2003 Australian study[6] by Monash University Accident Research Centre found that ABS:

  • Reduced the risk of multiple vehicle crashes by 18 percent,
  • Reduced the risk of run-off-road crashes by 35 percent.

On high-traction surfaces such as bitumen, or concrete, many (though not all) ABS-equipped cars are able to attain braking distances better (i.e. shorter) than those that would be easily possible without the benefit of ABS. In real world conditions even an alert, skilled driver without ABS would find it difficult, even through the use of techniques like threshold braking, to match or improve on the performance of a typical driver with a modern ABS-equipped vehicle. ABS reduces chances of crashing, and/or the severity of impact. The recommended technique for non-expert drivers in an ABS-equipped car, in a typical full-braking emergency, is to press the brake pedal as firmly as possible and, where appropriate, to steer around obstructions. In such situations, ABS will significantly reduce the chances of a skid and subsequent loss of control.

In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring. Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock. The primary benefit of ABS on such surfaces is to increase the ability of the driver to maintain control of the car rather than go into a skid — though loss of control remains more likely on soft surfaces like gravel or slippery surfaces like snow or ice. On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel, it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on comparing all four wheels, and detecting individual wheels skidding). Availability of ABS relieves most drivers from learning threshold braking.

A June 1999 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) study found that ABS increased stopping distances on loose gravel by an average of 22 percent.[7]

According to the NHTSA,

"ABS works with your regular braking system by automatically pumping them. In vehicles not equipped with ABS, the driver has to manually pump the brakes to prevent wheel lockup. In vehicles equipped with ABS, your foot should remain firmly planted on the brake pedal, while ABS pumps the brakes for you so you can concentrate on steering to safety."

When activated, some earlier ABS systems caused the brake pedal to pulse noticeably. As most drivers rarely or never brake hard enough to cause brake lock-up, and a significant number rarely bother to read the car's manual,[citation needed] this may not be discovered until an emergency. When drivers do encounter an emergency that causes them to brake hard, and thus encounter this pulsing for the first time, many are believed to reduce pedal pressure, and thus lengthen braking distances, contributing to a higher level of accidents than the superior emergency stopping capabilities of ABS would otherwise promise. Some manufacturers have therefore implemented a brake assist system that determines that the driver is attempting a "panic stop" and the system automatically increases braking force where not enough pressure is applied. Hard or panic braking on bumpy surfaces, because of the bumps causing the speed of the wheel(s) to become erratic may also trigger the ABS. Nevertheless, ABS significantly improves safety and control for drivers in most on-road situations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Effica cy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W4YNE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-February-2009 at 00:16
from what i can make sence of so far??????

you want standard hight stiff as sh*t suspension ??

ABS you want to be able to lock up the front (to rock the arse round)

as for the mega skinny's, they lose traction (spin at the rear easier)when the front of the car nose dives during short skid due to no abs then, front to cut in better (less under steer)once you let of the brakes wieght transfer ???????????????

would welding the diff not be easier it is only a 1.8

POWER 325i or more! you will know the lecht, goin up the hill sittin away at 80 in forth gear plant the foot and she climbs up over the tone, in a 318 you need to drop a gear to even climb


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-February-2009 at 08:08
Originally posted by W4YNE W4YNE wrote:

from what i can make sence of so far??????

you want standard hight stiff as sh*t suspension ??

Something along those lines I guess.

He's trying to make it handle like a Hillman Imp.

Power Jim, just 'cos you have it doesn't mean you have to use all of it. It's part of what's called car control.

All the suspension kit on sale doesn't mean it makes the car any better, just different. As an "experienced" mechanic of your age should know.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-February-2009 at 09:43
Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

... mechanic ...


Stop calling me names. (lol)

Edited by jimf671
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2009 at 13:01
E30 arms and M3 bushes done. 138 pounds.

I didn't bother with all the usual faffing about with fancy gear and fancy procedures fitting the bushes. Measured and photographed the position of the lollipops/brackets on the originals. Cold chisel for bush removal. Bushes in freezer and lollipops in the oven while I had my lunch then bang them in with a big hammer. Pre-fitted the bushes in accordance with the measurements and fitted the whole assembly in a couple of minutes a side. Nipped up all the fasteners and then put it on its wheels before torquing everything.

Sod lying in the snow, on a slope, wrestling with those things for a game of whatever.

Painted everything as I went along. Looking neat.

Toe angle has not changed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-February-2009 at 13:15
Checklist, courtesy of MBW1.


-Bilstein B4 shocks
Probably. Rear soon. Good quality dampers are undoubtedly key to a good result.

-Four new standard springs
Will start with 6-cyl front spring spec. Keep standard at rear at first.

-New rear trailing arm bushes
Probably a good idea. Will have a look at these at the next opportunity.

-E30 front wishbones
Done. Good mod. I can feel the road.

-M3 offset bushes.
Done. Very good mod! Wonderful turn-in response.

-318iS anti roll bars
The 318 bar is massive. I would be surprised if the iS was any different.



------------------

-195 tyre
Worthwhile.

------------------

-Front offset
Anyone know of a way of making a small increase in offset on these cars without going to spacers?

------------------

(Rear right brake adjuster not behaving, so that is taking up far too much time at the moment. Will probably need new parts. An then there was that massive rock that was hidden in the snow on Sunday: oops.)

Edited by jimf671
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-February-2009 at 12:40
I have bought 4 springs and a pair of struts from Wayne.

After looking up the part numbers on the Sachs-Boge website, it turns out that the front springs and struts are from a late model E36 6-cylinder M-Tech. Good result!

Once I fit the stuff, I shall measure everything and note the sizes and marking of the springs on here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W4YNE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-February-2009 at 17:38
GLAD I COULD HELP YOUR MAD PLANS


Still not sure how they will work in the 318 it only bein a 4 pot obviously alot lighter engine.


And i did like that camber trick we spoke about is there any where local that sells the spacer or is it a home fabricate??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-February-2009 at 10:26
Those spacers can be bought ready made in a series of different sizes. I can't remember where I saw them. Certainly available in the USA but I have seen UK references to them as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UweM3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-March-2009 at 12:14
can I just ask one question please?
why do you want to drive through puddles with 160km/h????
E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimf671 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-March-2009 at 12:43
Originally posted by UweM3 UweM3 wrote:

can I just ask one question please?
why do you want to drive through puddles with 160km/h????


Routinely driving through an area with a typical rainfall of 2800mm (110 inches) per year.

Wet is normal. Surface water is normal.

Sometimes expected to 'make reasonable progress' on this route.
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