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E60 hesitation - torque convertor?

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Andrew Rolland View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: E60 hesitation - torque convertor?
    Posted: 24-November-2009 at 08:39

Guys

I've got a very small and very ocasional slight hesitation in my engine. I am assuming it's the engine after convincing myself it's not the autobox.

Edit (11.12.09) I think it is the transmission; the torque convertor lock up clutch.

Light throttle about 1,500 to 2,000 rpm and only happens between 30 mph and 40 mph.  The engine rpms fall then rise back and there is a bit of an annoying jerk thru the car.

No engine warning lights are on the dash.

I am thinking another air fault i.e. engine is getting a bit lean momentarily. Edit (11.12.09) Not convinced that's the fault now.

Any thoughts? Appart from plugs, coils, cam/crank sensors, MAF etc.

I know deep down that I am not going to find out whats wrong till it is plugged into a diagnostic machine but has anyone else experienced something similar? Edit (11.12.09) if it is mechanical it won't show up as a fault code!

Andrew



Edited by Andrew Rolland
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dergside Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-November-2009 at 15:02
As I read your first comments, before I saw your conclusion, I was thinking along the lines of an air leak too.  After that, coil packs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-November-2009 at 17:55

Thanks Dergside.

It's not at the stage of I can't drive the car, more of a minor annoyance.  I'll see what other symptoms I get.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dergside Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-November-2009 at 19:22
BTW - re. air leak, check the air bellows on the inlet side carefully.  They are flexible and I've had a couple of occurrences of them splitting slightly, but enough to give somewhat similar symptoms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-November-2009 at 08:22

Thanks again for that. 

It was on my to inspect list.  Not sure when I'll get round to doing that though.

I will add that it only happens when engine is fully up to temp and that it is at very low engine rpms, i.e. 1,000 to 1,500 and not the rpms stated above. 

Happened again last night but effect was much less, don't know if this was due to the air con being on?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2009 at 17:47

A small update.

Fault happened again today for the first time since posting the above 2.5 weeks ago.

I am now fairly well convinced that it is the torque convertor lock up clutch.

It's like the car is trying to change gear or engage the torque convertor lock up but not managing successfuly to do either.

What makes me think that it's the torque convertor lock up clutch (TCC to save the typing!) is that at the road speed when the fault happens 30-40 mph the autobox will be in 4th or 5th gear under light throttle when the TCC will want to be kicking in to give you better mpg and reduce engine rpms.  The TTC will only kick in when hot which is always the case.

I have no other symptoms of this at any other road speed which is what is confusing me.  It's fine when you give it the beans, fine at motorway speeds, there is no slip at speed when hitting an incline like classic friction clutch failure in a manual car.

It is of course still intermittent and no doubt will behave itself on a test drive at a tranny specialist! 

Anyone got any thoughts?

Andrew

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dergside Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2009 at 18:32

Given that there is so much electronic frippery on the e60, is there any software or ECU code updates for the transmission on these?  you are probably more aware than most about minding the transmission carefully so it might be worth starting in the electronic rather than the mechanical space.

That might be a dealer question for a proper answer

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-December-2009 at 11:57

Drove it twice on Friday night after posting the above and of course it was as smooth and powerful as normal and behaved!

I've spoken to a transmission specialist who said he would need to drive it to find out.

He did mention a couple of things he has received service info on from ZF (who make the box) but nothing relating to this.  He said the best thing to do is to monitor it.  If it becomes more common bring it in.

It does sound electronic to me, i.e. the 'box is telling something to engage when it shouldn't or disengage when it shouldn't.

BMW dealers won't know anything about the autobox but yes they would have heard of service info from ZF also.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grizzle_E60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-December-2009 at 12:15
I had the same thing happen in my E60 its done 39k, it was booked into the
dealers 2 weeks ago for two days of softare upgrades on the engine and
gearbox and its completely changed the car so much smoother and
responsive, of course it was done under warranty at £75 per hour
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 540 V8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-December-2009 at 20:00

It's worth a stap Andrew. As there are more and more electronics and control units on vehicles nowadays and given control units are just like our home PC's, it's becoming more common for these control units to need 'flashware' updates. I get to see most of the technical bulletins at my place and in the last 6 months, I have seen at least 3 relating to various vehicles and systems. A lot of them are usually preventative where they have found a pattern of faults on a small number of vehicles and they roll out updates to vehicles within the scope. Most are usually carried out during routine service before any problems are noticed but sometimes problems manifest themselves before this can happen.

Might be worth a call to your local dealer. Hope you sort it

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-December-2009 at 10:34

Cheers guys.

I'll make some enquiries at Fairbairns.  Will probably be over the Crimbo period.

Grizzle_E60, how long was it actually plugged into the computer for?

I had an issue with my eyebrow lights not coming on. Car was re-programmed within 2-3 hours.  That was under warranty though, I'm out of warranty now of course!

It was of course faultless this morning!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny conway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-December-2009 at 00:13

Hi andrew, had a little kick at speed some time ago in my e39. Turned out to be the MAf Sensor according to the Main Dealer on that occasion.

worth checking it out. good luck!.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-December-2009 at 08:03

cheers for that John

Car hasn't gone anywhere for nearly a week on the account that one of my rims is more sort of square shaped!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grizzle_E60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-December-2009 at 11:47
Originally posted by Andrew Rolland Andrew Rolland wrote:

Cheers guys.


I'll make some enquiries at Fairbairns.  Will probably be over the
Crimbo period.


Grizzle_E60, how long was it actually plugged into the computer for?


I had an issue with my eyebrow lights not coming on. Car was re-
programmed within 2-3 hours.  That was under warranty though, I'm out
of warranty now of course!


It was of course faultless this morning!


Andrew


eh well they said the gearbox is all day so i dropped it off about 9:30am i
called at 4pm to see if everything was ok the gearbox SW was fine but
they started the engine around 3:30-4 i imagine and they said it crashed
due to an error with the file from Germany and it would be left overnight
to programme it was ready at 2ish next day could be well over 12hrs but i
really cant be certain how long it was the dealers after all lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-June-2010 at 08:27

This little niggle has now happened 3 days running now, after being faultless for 2 months, when it only happened in one day.

Car needs an oil serice so I'm going to book it in at my local BMW dealer. 

I have narrowed down when the fault happens

fully up to temp,
very light throttle,
between 1,200 rpms and 1,500 rpms,
between 30 mph and 40 mph,
in manual mode and auto mode,
cruise control or on the right foot,

I'm fairly sure it is either a fault with the 5th to 6th gearshift or the 5th gear torque converter lock up clutch activation.

Question is, will the BMW dealer be able to tell me if the car needs any form of software upgrade to the autobox when its in for a service?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-June-2010 at 09:22

I assume it's a ZF ....

If so, drop them an email, I haven't been there for a while, any problems drop me a line and I'll ring them and find you a contact to talk to

http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=43712&am p;PN=1

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-June-2010 at 13:17

Cheers Nigel.

Yes it is a ZF box.  I've spoken to the local transmission guy and he couldn't put a finger on it but every avenue is worth exploring.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-June-2010 at 14:05

E-mail sent to Tom at ZF.

Will wait and see.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-June-2010 at 18:48

I have done a bit more digging on this on t'interweb.

Since then I have carried out a transmission reset "turn ignition on, hold down throttle for for than 25 seconds then start car".  Made a difference to the shifts of the 'box, much smoother but the judder/hesitation was still there.

I was playing with on the way home, and I got it to miss behave in 5th gear in manual mode.  Then it hit me.  If I am in manual mode and in 5th gear it cannot be the shift from 5th to 6th, so it must be a fault with the torque converter lock up clutch engaging in 5th gear.

Armed with that I'll make some enquiries with BMW and transmission specialist.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-June-2010 at 12:48

Thanks again Nigel, I've got a response from ZF.

They agreed with me that it could be a torque converter lock up clutch problem but they have advised firstly to make sure that the vehicles software is up to date (both the EGS and the DME) and also check that there are no engine related fault codes stored in the DME. ZF also said that BMW dealers are able to run a measures plan that will advise if the control unit require an update.

It's booked in to Harry Fairbairns Giffnock for an Oil Service and a check of the above next week.

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