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ChrisMurray View Drop Down
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Points: 25 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why its fine to fit spacers
    Posted: 07-December-2005 at 08:02

There is a lot of bad sentiments towards wheel conversions, so I thought to present some information to you all.
Firstly, anything you fit to BMW cars should have passed the German TUV and have a certificate to show that.
Secondly, you might imagine spacers to be non-solid, elongated hole, non-hubcentric.. There is a picture attached. These are not real spacers. These are cheap non-approved discs sold by uninformed car accessory shops.
bad_disc
Thirdly, if you disagree with the fitting of proper spacers, you might like to tell Porsche, Brabus, AC Schnitzer, Carlsson and countless other manufacturers who currently fit spacers to their cars. Brabus and Carlsson have blank wheels manufactured for them to which they fit spacers to produce the correct offset for each vehicle. AC Schnitzer supply 7mm spacers with many of their wheels.
Porsche spacer link: http://www.porsche.com/uk/accessoriesandservice/tequipment/9 11-996/wheels/spacers/

We buy all our spacers from here:
http://www.spurverbreiterung.de/index.php

H&R also make TUV aproved spacers, and the certificates are available online to see which widths are approved for which wheel sizes: http://www.h-r.com/index.php?inhalt=produkt-d&sprache=en
(pdf downloads available on the right)

 



Edited by ChrisMurray
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Points: 64 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2005 at 08:06

couldn't agree more!

 

 
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Nigel View Drop Down
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Points: 6941 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2005 at 08:18

Very good advice, and thankyou, it may prevent people from having problems.

If your car is not supplied with spacers from new, I'd still suggest...advise really...that you at least let your insurance people know.
Best Wishes

Nigel

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Points: 93 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2005 at 08:34
Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:

There is a lot of bad sentiments towards wheel
conversions, so I thought to present some information to you all.Firstly,
anything you fit to BMW cars should have passed the German TUV and
have a certificate to show that.Secondly, you might imagine spacers to be
non-solid, elongated hole, non-hubcentric.. There is a picture attached.
These are not real spacers. These are cheap non-approved discs sold by
uninformed car accessory shops.systems.com/images/bad_spacer.jpg">Thirdly, if you disagree with
the fitting of proper spacers, you might like to tell Porsche, Brabus, AC
Schnitzer, Carlsson and countless other manufacturers who currently fit
spacers to their cars. Brabus and Carlsson have blank wheels
manufactured for them to which they fit spacers to produce the correct
offset for each vehicle. AC Schnitzer supply 7mm spacers with many of
their wheels.Porsche spacer link: accessoriesandservice/tequipment/911-996/wheels/spacers/">ht tp://
www.porsche.com/uk/accessoriesandservice/tequipment/9 11-996/
wheels/spacers/


We buy all our spacers from here: www.spurverbreiterung.de/index.php">http://www.spurverbreite rung.de/
index.phpH&R also make TUV aproved spacers, and the certificates
are available online to see which widths are approved for which wheel
sizes: d&sprache=en">http://www.h-r.com/index.php?inhalt=produkt-
d&sprache=en(pdf downloads available on the right)


 

Thanks for the constructive useful information (again)
Chris, M.
E39 540i (4.4i V8).... 0-60 - 6.2secs and 298 bhp....Canyon Red with Sand leather... 18" 'M' Double Spokes - 275's on the rear....
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b318isp View Drop Down
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Points: 2057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2005 at 10:10
I have a few issues that you might clarify:

1. TUV certification relates to the spacer itself, not how it is used.
2. When spacers are fitted, it increases the leverage of the suspension, reducing the effective spring rate and potentially increases strain on suspension components.
3. On front wheels, spacers shift the contact patch centre away from the strut/kingpin axis. This may affect the steering reponses.
4. Who can determine the shear or bending stress effect on the wheel bolts?
5. It is unlikely any manufacturer would warrant the use of aftermarket spacers.

A proper suspension designer can take into account the effect of spacers, no doubt this is why ACS, Porsche, etc., do so. However for the public, it isn't that simple.

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ChrisMurray View Drop Down
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Points: 25 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2005 at 12:12

My previous post simplified a few points that i will expand on. Great avatar by the way! Because the German motor industry regulates more stringently than the UK, most technical documents are never translated to English.

1. There are many types of TUV certification, some vehicle specific (like those in the H&R links - please look! http://www.h-r.com/bin/04EUTG110.pdf) These are usually entitled 'teilegutachten'. The component under test may have various restrictions and conditions for fitment (hinweise und auflagen), usually listed at the end of the document.

2. Fitting spacers is the same as fitting a wheel of lower offset. Each car has a range of acceptable offsets. Compare the different wheels specs fitted to a certain model to see that this range is quite broad, and clearly all within the range of acceptable values for a given model. Very rarely will car tuners fit wheels outside the oem range of offsets, simply because as the wheel width limit is approached, the wheel will have equally small clearances on inside and outside.

3. I hope you'll see the answer to this in (2)

4. Bolts do not primarily carry shear loads. They provide clamping force. The hub spigott carries the forces. Bolts are tested by various bodies and have documentation about their strengths for other component manufacturers to use

5. 'Aftermarket' spacer manufacturers supply oem to manufacturers. eg. Techart supply Porsche dealers. Brabus is classed as a manufacturer (by Kraftfahrtbundesamt) and their wheels, manufactured often by Ronal, require spacers for fitment to each different Mercedes model.

The public has a choice. They can research their purchases and buy equipment that will work and is of high quality, or they can buy what is sold to them in a country where low quality products are the norm.

I fully expect you to reply, but do please actually read what I have written, and visit the links so I don't have to repeat the same points



Edited by ChrisMurray
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Points: 2098 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2005 at 12:22

I am looking at this with my Bro' who is fitting 328is wheels to his VR6.

Although the offset and PCD are wayyyy different, he will only be using spacers to align the BMW wheel centre axis with where the VW axis was in the first place.

Nothing wrong there and the geometry should be minimally affected (by increased width & diameter - same as buying new, bigger rims).

FYI I asked my insurance company previously and they are fine with the use of spacers/adaptors within my policy, as long as the manufacturers tolerances are not exceeded. Also, the guy I spoke to said that TUV approval would be very 'useful' in the event of the worst happening as proof that they are a tested and certified part. This was Zurich BTW.
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Nigel View Drop Down
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Points: 6941 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2005 at 12:36
Regarding insurance, I've had so many different responses, from different companies, I think its only fair to advise that people at least consult them.
Best Wishes

Nigel

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ChrisMurray View Drop Down
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Points: 25 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2005 at 12:42

yes, PCD adjusting spacers are available. As for the geometry changes, they will still be within acceptable ranges, as the documentation will show.

We haven't discussed hubcentricity yet...
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b318isp View Drop Down
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Points: 2057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-December-2005 at 06:37
Thanks for your thought provoking reply. Can I challange a bit further?

Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:


1. There are many types of TUV certification, some vehicle specific (like those in the H&R links - please look! http://www.h-r.com/bin/04EUTG110.pdf) These are usually entitled 'teilegutachten'. The component under test may have various restrictions and conditions for fitment (hinweise und auflagen), usually listed at the end of the document.



I think this supports my original comment.

Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:

2. Fitting spacers is the same as fitting a wheel of lower offset. Each car has a range of acceptable offsets. Compare the different wheels specs fitted to a certain model to see that this range is quite broad, and clearly all within the range of acceptable values for a given model. Very rarely will car tuners fit wheels outside the oem range of offsets, simply because as the wheel width limit is approached, the wheel will have equally small clearances on inside and outside.

3. I hope you'll see the answer to this in (2)



Who defines the range of acceptable offsets and how is a member of the public to know? Your comment on car tuners may be valid, but to generalise would not be wise. Some people fit spacers with no idea of consequence - especially when completely the wrong wheel is being adapted to fit a car. How often have you heard of arches being rolled to make a wheel fit?

Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:


4. Bolts do not primarily carry shear loads. They provide clamping force. The hub spigott carries the forces. Bolts are tested by various bodies and have documentation about their strengths for other component manufacturers to use



Good point about the clamping funciton, but older cars (e.g. those with studs) may not have hubs spiggots so may be in shear. If the wheels are purchased with the incorrect sized centre hole for the hub or a spacer has no spigot, then they will also be in shear - and much more seriously, may significantly compromise the loads on them as envisaged by the designers.

They also must take tensile loads when cornering. If a stock bolt or stud is used, then there will be less thread available to take this load.

Finally, the longer the bolt or stud, the more prone to bending moments, although this effect is probably minor.

Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:

5. 'Aftermarket' spacer manufacturers supply oem to manufacturers. eg. Techart supply Porsche dealers. Brabus is classed as a manufacturer (by Kraftfahrtbundesamt) and their wheels, manufactured often by Ronal, require spacers for fitment to each different Mercedes model.



I have no reason to doubt these reputable companies who have the engineering competency to incorporate them into their designs.

Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:

The public has a choice. They can research their purchases and buy equipment that will work and is of high quality, or they can buy what is sold to them in a country where low quality products are the norm.



I completely disagree as you are now generalising by assuming people can and will do this. In the main, there is variance in the quality and design of spacers. However, the major issue here is that there are few people who have an understanding of the consequences of fitting any particular spacer.

Be very clear on what I am saying, I have no doubt that spacers can be used safely if all the engineering aspects are considered and incorporated into the suspension design. However, it not correct to generalise and say that spacers are safe to use for the general public as it is impossible to generalise on the vehicles, wheels, spacers nor competencies involved.

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ChrisMurray View Drop Down
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Points: 25 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-December-2005 at 15:58
Originally posted by b318isp b318isp wrote:

Thanks for your thought provoking reply. Can I challange a bit further?

Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:


1. There are many types of TUV certification, some vehicle specific (like those in the H&R links - please look! http://www.h-r.com/bin/04EUTG110.pdf) These are usually entitled 'teilegutachten'. The component under test may have various restrictions and conditions for fitment (hinweise und auflagen), usually listed at the end of the document.



I think this supports my original comment.
Original comment: 1. TUV certification relates to the spacer itself, not how it is used.
The TUV operate many tests of differing test criteria, both on the components and their use.


Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:

2. Fitting spacers is the same as fitting a wheel of lower offset. Each car has a range of acceptable offsets. Compare the different wheels specs fitted to a certain model to see that this range is quite broad, and clearly all within the range of acceptable values for a given model. Very rarely will car tuners fit wheels outside the oem range of offsets, simply because as the wheel width limit is approached, the wheel will have equally small clearances on inside and outside.

3. I hope you'll see the answer to this in (2)



Who defines the range of acceptable offsets and how is a member of the public to know? Your comment on car tuners may be valid, but to generalise would not be wise. Some people fit spacers with no idea of consequence - especially when completely the wrong wheel is being adapted to fit a car.
What are you defining as completely the wrong wheel? If it fits and has a teilegutachten, then it is an acceptable fitment.

The range of acceptable spacer sizes for fitting to specific wheels is defined in the teilegutachten documents (even if you can't understand German, just look at the tables, they are self-explanatory). The range of acceptable offsets is a consequence of the size of spacer allowed to be fitted to a certain wheel/car combination. The public is to know by either researching their purchase, buying from reputable dealers, or asking the right questions in forums like this. People have free will, and there is no legislation against dealers supplying poor quality components, hence the confusion and caution surrounding these components.

How often have you heard of arches being rolled to make a wheel fit?
Very often! The fact is that to gain a few extra millimetres and for the tyre to run closer to the inside of the bodywork, the wheelarches will be rolled. AMG do this at the factory. Mercedes have an option code for them, and I'm sure the BMW tuners do exactly the same to fit the larger wheel/tyre combinations. Again, a manufacturer factory process.

Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:


4. Bolts do not primarily carry shear loads. They provide clamping force. The hub spigott carries the forces. Bolts are tested by various bodies and have documentation about their strengths for other component manufacturers to use



Good point about the clamping funciton, but older cars (e.g. those with studs) may not have hubs spiggots so may be in shear. 
I don't have sufficient information to comment on that. All modern BMW and Mercedes use bolts and have hub spigots.
If the wheels are purchased with the incorrect sized centre hole for the hub or a spacer has no spigot, then they will also be in shear - and much more seriously, may significantly compromise the loads on them as envisaged by the designers.

The teilegutachten defines the use of the spacer with such vehicles. Spacers with width exceeding the hub spigot length are made hubcentric, where the outside of the spacer mimics the shape of the hub (including the spigot) please look at the links I posted from SCC to see what their system2 spacers look like. Non-hubcentric spacers have restrictions placed on their use and width so that the load limits of the spigot and bolt strength are observed. There are just as capable engineers working for people like SCC and the TUV agency as there are in BMW, who are just as saftey conscious (if not more so because their budgets cannot cope so well with recalls and the consequences of component failure)

They also must take tensile loads when cornering. If a stock bolt or stud is used, then there will be less thread available to take this load. Of course the mounting hardware must be changed in accordance with the teilegutachten, to observe the minimum thread engagement lengths (about 6mm for M12x1.5)

Finally, the longer the bolt or stud, the more prone to bending moments, although this effect is probably minor.
Not really - the bolt is supported along its length by the spacer.

Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:

5. 'Aftermarket' spacer manufacturers supply oem to manufacturers. eg. Techart supply Porsche dealers. Brabus is classed as a manufacturer (by Kraftfahrtbundesamt) and their wheels, manufactured often by Ronal, require spacers for fitment to each different Mercedes model.



I have no reason to doubt these reputable companies who have the engineering competency to incorporate them into their designs.

Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:

The public has a choice. They can research their purchases and buy equipment that will work and is of high quality, or they can buy what is sold to them in a country where low quality products are the norm.



I completely disagree as you are now generalising by assuming people can and will do this. In the main, there is variance in the quality and design of spacers. However, the major issue here is that there are few people who have an understanding of the consequences of fitting any particular spacer.

Be very clear on what I am saying, I have no doubt that spacers can be used safely if all the engineering aspects are considered and incorporated into the suspension design. However, it not correct to generalise and say that spacers are safe to use for the general public as it is impossible to generalise on the vehicles, wheels, spacers nor competencies involved.

Does a coke can unrolled and pierced with a corkscrew count as a spacer? Whn I say spacer, I mean a properly designed component, tested and approved with documentation to govern its use. This is the only type of spacer I sell, but I am the only wheel dealer in the UK who refuses to sell non-genuine wheels. I suspect your definition of spacer is wider.
The argument should not be with me, but the authorities that permit poor quality goods and advice to be sold to the public.

When cut and shut second hand cars came to market, was everyone advised to stop buying used cars? No, legislation protected the uninformed public from making bad decisions so that poor quality unsafe products could not be sold so easily.
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Points: 2057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-December-2005 at 08:55
Originally posted by ChrisMurray ChrisMurray wrote:

Does a coke can unrolled and pierced with a corkscrew count as a spacer? Whn I say spacer, I mean a properly designed component, tested and approved with documentation to govern its use. This is the only type of spacer I sell, but I am the only wheel dealer in the UK who refuses to sell non-genuine wheels. I suspect your definition of spacer is wider. The argument should not be with me, but the authorities that permit poor quality goods and advice to be sold to the public.



My arguement is not with you as you seem to know your subject well. The role of the authrorities mentioned sort of falls to us Moderators on the board!

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