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afsar View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14-July-2010 at 17:37

Friends, would like to share my experience with one of the (so called) reputed BMW main dealer in west London. It is H R Owen, Holland park (based in North Acton, London)

 

I have 2007 E60 LCI 535D. It is loaded with many optional extras. One of the extra is active cruise control with stop and go function. I really love that feature and use it a lot, it is kind of relaxation on long journey and a bit of help in congestion also. I wouldn’t have bought this car (atleast not at the price I paid) without this feature. My car was running out of warranty last month so I went for few cosmetic warranty repairs, which was done quickly.

 

Just before my warranty was expiring (2 days left) I found a problem with ACC (active cruise control) where it won’t turn on in one attempt. However if you keep trying it will eventually come on in 3-5 attempts. I could reproduce this every time but this problem was intermittent. When it won’t work it will just show “mph” followed by “--“ under it. If working normally it will show the speed you set the cruise control to with an arch above it (normal behaviour). I reported this to H R Owen Holland park dealership and they accepted my car for a check.

 

Now the actual drama starts.

 

Technicians at dealership were quite clueless about this issue as they don’t see many e60s with acc. For a good part of a week they did not accept the problem (despite reproducing it to them atleast once). After a week of struggle they pointed out that I have a dension MP3 kit installed and this could be interfering with the system and they would charge me for an hours labour to remove it and continue their investigation! I couldn’t believe it how can a technician conclude this. Dension system is for MP3 player and part of MOST network which is in perfectly working condition since 7-8 months now and acc problem started recently. I told them to charge me *only if* removing dension solves the problem, otherwise not. They did not agree! Finally I had to agree to pay.

 

Technician removed dension kit and problem was still present. By this time two weeks finished. Third week they started following up with BMW technical department and BWM authorized them to replace acc control module and by end of the week control unit was ordered. That took another few days to come and it was already in its 4th week. Finally they had problem programming it to the car and that took another few days.

 

By end of 4th technician put everything back and went on test drive and the problem was STILL there! Learning that we have spent 4 weeks (a substantial portion of summer) and achieved nothing and I am liable for charge for removing dension unit which did not help either I made a complaint to BMW customer support. They came back telling me they will do everything to assist the dealership to solve this problem.

 

It is mid of 5th week now since I gave my car there and dealership says they are waiting for response from BMW. They are planning to give my car back while BMW decides on what to do next. They “might” return my car this week which will be worse-off when I gave it to them.

 

It is worth mentioning that I was given a courtesy car (BMW MINI ONE 1.4) by end of 3rd week. For that too dealership wanted me to pay £10 a day on insurance! Luckily my current insurer (Tesco) offered me fully-comp insurance for free.

 

I don’t know what is my legal right here and what can be done to compensate the mental harassment I have been thru (and still going) during this 5 weeks. Above all what do I do about the problem now. They have told me it will still be covered by warranty as now warranty has expired. I am planning for county court action. Funniest part is from BMW customer support they say we don’t have any ETA for any problem resolution. Their words “it will take as longer as it takes”!

 

Sorry for this long write up but it may give a customer’s view of how BMW and its dealer network treat their customers. Also it gives right indication of so called technician’s knowledge about beating around the bush like removing dension mp3 kit.

 

Words of advice: Stay away from H R Owen unless you need just a puncture repair (that too could be 1hr labour @ £160+VAT/hr.)

 

Thanks for reading.

Afsar Imam



Edited by afsar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Rolland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2010 at 08:28

I reckon unless it is an oily part of the engine or a part of suspension or braking system, BMW can really struggle with electrical/software problems, especially if as you say, ACC is as common as rocking horse poo.

It's not too bad, you are still getting the new ACC fitted under warranty, you are not going to be financially out of pocket but I think they are within their rights to charge you for removing a non standard, non BMW part in an effort to eliminate the fault.

Fitting non BMW kit to a BMW under warranty is going to be a risky business.  It is an easy cop out for them not to shell out under warranty.

Good to hear what Tesco insurance have done for you though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote afsar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2010 at 10:19
Today they are giving me my car back (after charging me for removing dension) while they wait for response from BMW. They have promised me to give a letter explaining the situation so that any labour or parts are covered under warranty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dergside Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2010 at 10:58

From around the time of the e65 onwards BMW have been very prickly about non-BMW electrical or electronic kit being fitted.  The electronics and associated networking on these are so complex and sensitive that its not hard to upset them with non-standard mods.  That might suggest that they are sufficiently hardened for this type of environment but that's another discussion.

I work as an IT manager and our PC guys always reserve the right to remove non-standard hardware or software from kit that we support if there may be a link (or the possibility of a link) to a problem the user experiences.  For instance a couple of years ago we had a lot of problems where versions of Skype really upset the standard images we used on standard PC's.  Not sure why, and later combinations of image, hardware and Skype didn't have the problem.

Its a PITA that you've been inconvenienced on the Denison but don't let that be a distraction from the real problem, which is that the dealer and BMW UK don't seem to have the depth of understanding of their own systems and the diagnostics are not sophisticated enough to fill the gap in their knowledge.  If they and BMW UK can't figure it out, demand that they get support from the mother ship.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote afsar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2010 at 12:41
Originally posted by Dergside Dergside wrote:

Its a PITA that you've been inconvenienced on the Denison but don't let that be a distraction from the real problem, which is that the dealer and BMW UK don't seem to have the depth of understanding of their own systems and the diagnostics are not sophisticated enough to fill the gap in their knowledge.  If they and BMW UK can't figure it out, demand that they get support from the mother ship.


Truely said. Problem kept happening in the same fashion even when they removed the dension kit. So I have every reason of not blaming dension kit. I had dension since some time now and the problem never happened before.

I had a bit of understanding how MOST ring works in my car. All the entertainment units are connected using MOST ring and if you take out any equipment whole ring will be disturbed and nothing in that ring will work. e.g. take bluetooth out and cd changer will stop working because of broken ring however indash cd player will still be usable because that is not in ring in non-logic7 cars. Once I remember I did not have cd changer in the ring and due to that bluetooth wasn't working, but ACC always worked. This gives me hint that ACC has nothing to do with the MOST ring and its attached devices. Anyway this was too much for dealership's technical person to understand.

My suspecion will be, ordered by ease of doing it:

a. Radar calibration
b. Software upgrade (as this is not happening evertime, it could be a bug)
c. Replace the whole unit with all the sensors and control unit (control unit has already been replaced)

A quick look in the manual says when you see "mph --" on the console it means "all the condition for cruise control to start has not been met". This applies to even standard cruise control cars. I did see this on one of my friend's e90 325i (non ACC) and it shows "mph --" and my speed was too low to start cruise control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Fenwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2010 at 16:14
Originally posted by Dergside Dergside wrote:

 the dealer and BMW UK don't seem to have the depth of understanding of their own systems and the diagnostics are not sophisticated enough to fill the gap in their knowledge. 

A problem that is only going to get worse the more complicated the electronics fitted to cars gets.

To be honest most dealerships should be employing computer technicians these days as well as mechanics.

Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote afsar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2010 at 16:45
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

A problem that is only going to get worse the more complicated the electronics fitted to cars gets.

To be honest most dealerships should be employing computer technicians these days as well as mechanics.


Then only solution left will be "to pray".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dergside Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2010 at 18:07

Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

[QUOTE=Dergside] A problem that is only going to get worse the more complicated the electronics fitted to cars gets.

That's probably only partially true. 

Go back to the early '80's and the concept and complication of fuel injection on run of the mill cars seemed extremely sophisticated and complex. 

And for a time the dealers struggled to keep up.  A lot of injection problems seemed to require the replacement of the ruinously expensive and complex ECU and a lot of people held back and stuck with the carb engined cars they were used to and that all mechanics could deal with.  Now you wonder what all the fuss was about.

Eventually the technical knowledge percolated down the line to the point where any mechanic could handle it and the technology itself became more reliable. 

We're probably seeing the same thing here.  Stuff that is now bleeding edge will become mainstream in the next few years.  The company I work for supplies electronics to automotive systems manufacturers, and other markets, and reckons that the electronics value in the average car has risen from 25% to 40% of the value of the car over the past 3-5 years.  You only have to look at the list of systems in a new 5 series to see how that has arisen.  Active Steering, active cruise control, stability control systems, lane departure warning systems, active and passive safety systems, climate control systems, energy regeneration, etc. all require lots of electronics.  A lot of that is now bleeding edge, not long before it is leading edge and less time again before its mainstream and unremarkable.



Edited by Dergside
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bmwcare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-July-2010 at 03:21
Some info on the system fitted (I think it's the one on yours)

http://uploading.com/files/b234m894/ACC_E60_v2.pdf/

As you suggest, MOST should not be affected. Denison behaves exactly like official iPod retrofit kit. They would not have said to remove that if it was fitted...

I'd be pi$$ed off a little.. :(

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 540 V8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-July-2010 at 21:56
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

Originally posted by Dergside Dergside wrote:

 the dealer and BMW UK don't seem to have the depth of understanding of their own systems and the diagnostics are not sophisticated enough to fill the gap in their knowledge. 

A problem that is only going to get worse the more complicated the electronics fitted to cars gets.

To be honest most dealerships should be employing computer technicians these days as well as mechanics.



They do!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UweM3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-August-2010 at 07:13
160 per hour PLUS VAT!!!!!!

Is this what they are charging now?
E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote afsar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-August-2010 at 09:04
Originally posted by UweM3 UweM3 wrote:

160 per hour PLUS VAT!!!!!!

Is this what they are charging now?

Surprising but true; this is what they charge. I remember
last year they quoted something like 120 or 130 +VAT don't
know what made them increase this to 25-30%, may be
recession.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote afsar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-August-2010 at 09:06
Here is update requested by me yesterday.


--------------
hi there

Any update on this?

To summarize, I reported this problem when the car was
still under warranty and then this is what happened:
               You kept car for 5 weeks,
               Drove 250 miles on the name of testing it
(not even re-fuelled),
               Took out mp3 player which did not fix
anything,
               Car oil service light has come up
               Did not calibrate the acc sensors making
acc completely useless,
               Did not find / fix the problem and finally,
               Charged me £135!

So I received a car much worse then I gave you! Is this
how to treat warranty repairs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UweM3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-August-2010 at 11:37
Originally posted by afsar afsar wrote:

Originally posted by UweM3 UweM3 wrote:

160 per hour PLUS VAT!!!!!!

Is this what they are charging now?

Surprising but true; this is what they charge. I remember
last year they quoted something like 120 or 130 +VAT don't
know what made them increase this to 25-30%, may be
recession.


I can't believe this! I guess most of the population doesn't earn this sort of money A DAY!
Another reason to drive 10-15 year old cars. At lest you can repair them!
E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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