AS if You needed to be told   The London CON-gestion charge as everyone knows is a Complete Disaster, EVEN for the Livingstone Mafia and the Traffic for London parasites.Brainwashed by their own recordings of How they are saving London, and will save the Country.

A REAL Non Slime investigation, has shown what the truth is.After All the claims of self financing London transport, the £200 Million that charges would bring in--only £70M comes in, of that--£38M is fines.ALL public transport is losing momey like theres No tomorrow, Fares have been raised again, AND--£500 Million Taxpayers money Per Year is required to just keep it going.Such a success that 37% of businesses have sacked staff--and 84% say takings are down-John Lewis trade is down by 10%.A large nunber of all types of company are going to move out.

YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! truly a great success-----to show that council near You and You, what will happen in the near future, Edinburgh has more common sense--its just Voted by 74% Against CON charges Despite a drum beating visit from Red Ken to say how much success they have acheived in London.

IMO any business that controls anything to do with Public service should not be accountable to shareholders.

Its just a kick in the groin of the person paying the tax for whatever the service maybe, knowing that instead of being re-invested in the service or the money going to other good uses such as improving the environment, instead its just going into the back pocket of some fat cat director or other major shareholder.

Re-nationalise everything - Privatisation sucks!

Well I live in Edinburgh, and I wouldn't dream of driving in the city centre. The council are changing the traffic flow of the whole city centre to make it much much more difficult for car drivers to get around - a petty tactic in an attempt to make the congestion charge look like a good idea. To be fair cars in the city centre are a menace, why not have a ring of peripheral park and ride for free schemes to encourage drivers to leave their cars and get on the good and regular buses. Public transport up here is second to none, and for that very reason I would never take my car in. Besides, parking in the centre is horrendous.

However, the council also wants to implement an outer ring of charging meaning that for me to drive to work every day would cost an extra two quid, and everyone who wanted to come in off the bypass would also need to pay this two quid. Personally I would just move out of the city - the roads are terrible and the council traffic wardens are far too eager to give tickets, they can be often seen hovering around cars waiting for the time to run out. That really annoys me. I agree that cars in the city centre aren't a good thing, but charging to enter the city limits is just ridiculous. 74% of the population were right to say no.

to the original point of this thread  ..mr B 7 VP  take a bow young man

      .our ken should have been sacked years ago for bringing in some of the most self rightness ideas he had .....fairs fairs..hes had some good ones  but the CON charge is all well and good if it is actualy doing what it said ..self fiance ...and heres the truth .another one of kens ..sweep it under the carpet   ..once its gone through..

This country is far too centralised in London anyway.  So if companies move out then good.  We are not alone though as Paris and Amsterdam etc all experience the same problem.  The capital is bursting with jobs (relatively) meanwhile the rest of the country is left to rot!!

Good work Blair!!  This issue will not go away in my lifetime unfortunately. 

silverbeastie wrote: This country is far too centralised in London anyway.  So if companies move out then good.

all the big accountants  have shipped to leeds ..KPMG earnest and young ..etc etc   .they got there head screwed on faily ealrly on in the game ..why have london rates etc   .when you can nearly halve it up north ..and if anybody needs to get to head office in london .stick them on the train and hey presto .in kings cross in 1hr 30 mins .

hence not stuck in london traffic and actualy doing work for 1 hr 30 mins on train ....clever peeps me thinks

in some pubs round here theres more londerners than locals ...

 Wow!!! You ALL , are noted--for MY Govt, bit worried !!! Sounds like SO much Common Sense.

1.Spokey-- I AM in favour of a system that is Clean-Reasonable cost-without slime offensive Xx"2)%62 passengers-on time-and runs at "This World times" if the last show finishes at 23-30, NO good if the last Bus/train goes at 21-57 --- Is It ?? If I dont want to drive into  Munich from the Airport-- I can go by U-bahn-everything one wants in UK less the Billions of ££££££ WE spend, and only Dream.

2.Nostrils. Youre paying Attention mate, you get a free ticket to Ride-- or was that Ryde IOW--the true sum of TAXPAYERS Wages taken to bribe was £31 MILLION £££££££££££££££££,s BUT- newspapers say the sum was MANY times greater.You have to be in the inner RED slime Sh-t to have the true cost.

3.Praktisk.The fact that ££££££££££££ are on the line for running a Public service means that WE the Public, dont get a PUBLIC service.agree with you.NOW !!!!!!!! heres a thought for EVERYONE--what would happen--If the Slime Government sold its shares to the Public--guess what would happen?????????

4.Doive--Great common sense-- Suggest to the council that the Outer Charge is ok--BUT-you and 100,000 others will deduct £2 x 6 x 52 weeks per year from the Council TAX.So you save £624 per house.

5.Pma1ums, AS a 90 year old you made Me day mate, think YOU will be me Spin chief.

Well me cabinet is looking the Biz--DONT cal ME--Cos I will call u.-- Vote for Me !!!!

5.Pma1ums, AS a 90 year old you made Me day mate, think YOU will be me Spin chief

 spin is my middle name  ...so you are ok with me ...salary is performance related with me ..£10 basic [ dont want 40 k capped]..the rest on what i spin .

ask some of my past customers ..how they though they only wanted a price ..rather than the job been installed that week ..

you know it makes sense rodney ....

 


Horsetan advised--   All that I and others forecast about the folly of a Mayor and a "London Assembly" (for which, read "Ken's Friends") has now come to pass. And guess what? We're paying for it![/QUOTE]

Maybe the IOC know by advice pre visit,  about Bob Crow and the Crownies--But --as we know--IOC are about as PURE as the Swiss Accounts.Not Such a good move from Bliar was it???--support RED Ken to spin the infiltrating brainwash--that was only allowed for in  a Bliar DNA. Even WE wouldnt fall for that Wheel clamp-Would WE????-----------

Nigel, hate to tell you this, BUT-- YOU are in the Threatening Zone Area,suspended short list--for suggestive physical retaliation against our fellow/ess road sharers.Even in jest-its not to be encouraged.

PS-- Tim on the Znet-has just passed his IAM test.I have voluntered him for El presidente, due to they aint got one--since Duke was zapped !!!!!!!!OR !! We All could vote Nige in to do the Biz !!!!!!!!!!!

Lmao, I spent my first 19 years in London, on discharge from HM AF the loony Lambeth council did me a favour and illegally refused to house me which helped me get a place in the midlands, well away from the lunatics running the asylum known as london.

 Even in my youth public transport sucked, as soon as considered old enough went to school on (sorry Nigel) a pushbike, upgraded to a motorbike asap.

By the wa Rhys, cats work better than garden canes, whole bike somersaults around front wheel!IanT

Glad to here Edinbrugh (spelling?) rejected the congesgion charging. I have to admit though, I don't care to much about London. Anyone would think that it was the only centre of the universe. I made a choice not to move there some time ago and I'm very glad. There are more jobs, but it's a bit like living in a battery farm. And TBH anyone who even attempts to drive into the centre deserves to be charged just for stupidity. The public transport system there may not be great but compared to Teeside it's brilliant and compared to driving it's soooo much better.

I also think that privatisation of public services is a bad idea, how can a company that is supposed to be providing a quality, universal service to everyone be run as a privite, profit making business?? All that happens is the areas that make the most money prosper and the parts of the service that don't fall by the wayside.

Oh and Ken Livinstone is a prat but I'm glad he didn't appologise to that reporter! The Evening Standard and the Daily Mail don't deserve an appology off anyone

Peter Fenwick wrote:   Oh and Ken Livinstone is a prat but I'm glad he didn't appologise to that reporter! The Evening Standard and the Daily Mail don't deserve an appology off anyone

mr p    .strong words spoken there ....buy yeah i agree  our ken is not my fave person in the world a lier/cheating/blagging etc spring to mind .but in all due respeck for the man .there was no way he should have appologised .after all at the end of the day if he did apologise it wouldnt have been genuine .and freedom of speech is allowed in the uk  

On a similar note the geniuses that are Glasgow City Council have decided in their wisdom to introduce parking charges to a huge business area in the cities west End.  Rumours are that it will cost me up to £20 a day to park the BM outside the office.  I can drive from home to work in about 25 mins to do the 14 miles.

Public transport would mean a 10 min drive to nearest station 4 miles away. 20 mins on train to Glasgow Central then a 25 min walk from the station to my office.  Total of 55 mins and a cost of about £4.80 on the train plus running the car to the station plus increase wear in my shoes!

I guess the parking meter machine company has given the city council a large bung or freebie or a trip to Parkhead!

Very clever indeed.  All they will succeed in doing is pushing people who drive to and work in this part of the city away to work for companies in out of town business parks.

Andrew

 Andrew, Copy My original post with your name and mail it to ALL the papers, car groups , City Council --- ++++++++

So brainwashed--are these city hall  parasites on your Taxpayers wages--that even when disaster is 5cm from their nose, they think their Scam is the winner.

Paste up the NO!! posters and cover the town halls windows and Doors with them.

B 7 VP wrote: Nigel, hate to tell you this, BUT-- YOU are in the Threatening Zone Area,suspended short list--for suggestive physical retaliation against our fellow/ess road sharers.Even in jest-its not to be encouraged.

Unlikely John, as I do the suspending !! lol

As for Tim, well done to him, he was recruited from the E30 bash at Rockingham, and has taken the course very seriously, even claiming it prevented him from having a bump with a police car.

Howard wrote: If Cities want to keep traffic out of their centres, then fine - I won't spend any money there.

Well said.

Did you see on the news around christmas all the stuff about internet sales taking customers off the highstreet shops, well I bought over half my presents off the net. Why? because I don't like having to pay for the privilage of parking so that I can go and patronise shops. The shops should provide free parking if they want us to shop there. Internet shopping is great! and it normally works out a lot cheaper.

Me and my other half used to visit York to go shopping regularly, until the put the parking charges up to stupidly expensive levels. It cost us about £7 to park last time we visited. Considering that one of Yorks biggest buisinesses is tourism it seemed like a stupid move to me. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

Sorry nothing to do with congestion charging but all part of the same rip off.   

 Correct!!!!!!!!!!! BUT---If Londoners paid attention to HOW and WHO organised the Takeover of their supposed RIGHTS---and PROTESTED in many ways, they wouldnt now be Blaming the OTHER person for the Mire    Thats WHY---Before The EXACT things happen  in YOUR City/Town  AND Polls--YOU gotta Fight back NOW ,

Next Week is Too late--Ask the People of London.

I don't think it matters where we are, or the politics behind it, toll roads are a matter of time and nothing more.

Is it really any fun on a daily drive these days?  The volume of traffic is immense and any government would have to take some form of action to prevent total gridlock.

Personally, I am in favour of city centre fees.  If they wanted to put them in Newcastle tomorrow I would vote Yes.

I'm also in favour of tolling the likes of the A1, M1, M25, M62 etc - something has to be done to prevent total chaos. 

Very few people use the internet to save themselves parking fees, the majority use it for the sheer convenience and because the prices tend to be cheaper too.

I've put my flameproof suit on....but it's purely my opinion.

My point is that I'd still take the car - but I'd pay the toll.

Those that had to in order to work have their choice.

But, it keeps out those to whom the trip into the City Centre isn't imperative, thereby easing the journey for the real road users.

Coasting wrote: My point is that I'd still take the car - but I'd pay the toll. Those that had to in order to work have their choice. But, it keeps out those to whom the trip into the City Centre isn't imperative, thereby easing the journey for the real road users.

I rather suspect that you are in a financial postion to just pay tolls etc, a lot of people arent in that position.

How do you feel about my NHS nurse wife being told she has to pay to park at her workplace, to help ease congestion ?

She isnt in the best paid job, it is her choice of course, but where is the public transport system for her to use, we cant even consider if its safe enough, clean enough etc, as it just isnt there.

You may even be able to afford poncy private medical care, but I bet the nurses looking after you cant, would you support them being charged to care for you, so you can drive your £50,000 car on your exclusive roads ?

Its a con, it has nothing to do with easing congestion, reducing greenhouse gases etc, its just another government stealth tax.

I could support your opinion if the transport system was in place, like it was when I was a lad in Birmingham, but there isnt anything for people to use !

Nigel, has your missus not considered applying for BUPA or even as an agency nurse? - Im sure the stress factor would be lower and the £££ factor would be higher.

I havent a bad word to say about BUPA either, private med-care is a perk of my contract, and I do get taxed on it, and touch wood so far I've only had to use it once, but the General ora of the staff is really good, they dont seem too busy or over worked or ultimately over stressed. Plus you get a decent meal and a decent private room.

Private healthcare is the future, (which goes against my re-nationalise everything stance) - but your health is something you cant afford to "skimp" on- I have alot of respect for people like your wife, it's a job I could never do myself, but until there is anysort of decent reform within the NHS, even if I leave my job, I'll pay the extra for the BUPA scheme.

Just my 2p worth ...

Coasting wrote: My point is that I'd still take the car - but I'd pay the toll. Those that had to in order to work have their choice. But, it keeps out those to whom the trip into the City Centre isn't imperative, thereby easing the journey for the real road users.

nigel wrote: I rather suspect that you are in a financial postion to just pay tolls etc, a lot of people arent in that position.

It has nothing to do with that whatsoever.  It is purely a matter of keeping traffic out that doesn't need to be there.  If I went to an office, and stayed there all day, I'd find another way perhaps - I meant for those that go to an office and may then have to go back out later, to a direct location not served by public transport.  i.e. a real need for the car being there.

In fact I'd go mid-way.  Park & Ride is a fantastic scheme IF the locations you leave the cars at at well managed and very secure.

nigel wrote: How do you feel about my NHS nurse wife being told she has to pay to park at her workplace, to help ease congestion ? She isnt in the best paid job, it is her choice of course, but where is the public transport system for her to use, we cant even consider if its safe enough, clean enough etc, as it just isnt there.

I don't see what the job has to do with it, I really don't.  I don't prejudice anyone based on jobs.  If they fall within an area that met with the charge - then they pay it like the next person.

Would she be any different from the social worker on less who had to go out to visit people?  No, of course not.

Public Transport would have to be be much better of course - I accept that.  I never said it would support the scheme as it is right now.

Nigel wrote: You may even be able to afford poncy private medical care, but I bet the nurses looking after you cant, would you support them being charged to care for you, so you can drive your £50,000 car on your exclusive roads ?

I'm not sure why private medical care is poncy?  Hmm.  I see a trend here.

Who said they were MY roads?  They'd be used by everyone who paid the toll for driving on them - no different to RFL but charged on use - what is so wrong with that? 

I think you're making the argument earnings based - which just doesn't stand up to any form of reasoned analysis whatsoever.

Nigel wrote: Its a con, it has nothing to do with easing congestion, reducing greenhouse gases etc, its just another government stealth tax.  I could support your opinion if the transport system was in place, like it was when I was a lad in Birmingham, but there isnt anything for people to use !

Public Transport needs a radical overhaul. that is true.  But, I'd question whether you can really compare today with the system you had as a child.  Retrospect is usually rose tinted and volumes of commuter-types in the population have multiplied by folds of hundreds.

Its of topic, but I started it !

Private medical care, where do I start...great if your healthy, have any "condition" ( such as my diabetes ) then have another look at it, it also raises the question, I've paid once, so why should I pay again, I travel the world, and believe me, our NHS with all its warts really is the envy of the world.

There are too many freeloaders on it, now how you sort that out ?, god knows.

As far as road tolls go, these aren't in place of RFL, its as well as, also as well as all the taxes you pay on insurance fuel etc.

You already pay for all the roads, building and upkeep, and some, so why ask the motorist to pay again ?

If they want to raise tax, do it honestly, on the basic tax rate, let everyone pay.

Road tolls wont really effect me, I'll just charge my customers, they will charge who they supply etc etc, and as well as your own road tolls you will be paying mine too, on the goods you buy.

Our slimy government then get the road tolls direct from me, then in tax on all the charges as it goes down the line, you will even pay vat on the bit you pay when you buy the goods.

Its a con !

As for Birmingham's public transport system, it was the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive, we used to call it wumpity, it was superb, even as an adult, home on leave, I'd never consider taking the car into the city.

We have built a car culture, its taken decades, you cant dismantle it overnight, HM Gov will need to put something in place first.

The hospital isn't in the City John, it is on the outskirts, actually very close to jnc 6 of the M5.

Its one of these new privately funded jobs, you know the type, they have closed down all the outlying smaller hospitals and clinics, closed down Worcester 600 bed hospital on top of that, and built us a brand new sparkly 400 bed one.

There isn't enough parking...surprise surprise, as the local gov chaps ( labour,,,need I say more ) want you to use the non existent public transport system.

I needed an op on my hands last year, as you know, I had to go to Evesham, and be there at 8 o'clock in the morning, not possible on public transport, I couldn't drive myself obviously, so had to be taken and collected.

My young son, as you know, was born with a cleft lip and palette, he has to go to Birmingham.

My wife, who works for the system needs a small op next week, she's been waiting ages, and we were told this morning she has to go to Coventry.

All helping the so called greenhouse gasses this isn't it ?

Greenhouse gasses etc, suits them in one argument, doesn't exist in another.

Praktisk wrote:   Private healthcare is the future, (which goes against my re-nationalise everything stance) - but your health is something you cant afford to "skimp" on- I have alot of respect for people like your wife, it's a job I could never do myself, but until there is anysort of decent reform within the NHS, even if I leave my job, I'll pay the extra for the BUPA scheme. Just my 2p worth ...

good objective point mr p

bupa really is a good system   .....on another objective view...

with all the fuss about NHS this or NHS that ......if the goverment decided to get off there back side and ACTUALLY made the NHS in to a private run concern ..they would reep so so many benifits to us the tax payer

.it goes like this .<G>

turn all local hospitals private .[run from independ biuisnesses]

set up ONE governing body .[a bit like ofgem .etc etc]to regulate and observe what each individaul company .sets out in there company practices  ....ie  regimes/vetting of staff/qualifications of G.P.s etc

if you had say 3 companys   vieing for say a hip replacement .at the cost of [estimate] £5000 to the NHS. you would have .three private run places  in that area [that had proper surgeons etc] as regulated by the goverment..to perform the task .to the same standard as the NHS. but without the costings of such like the NHS..

so one company says .[hip replacement]   is £3500...other say £3700.the NHS will still foot the bill  but will not foot the stupid spirraling costs that it has seen [ever wondered why nurses get paid very little for what they actually do?]....simple the gov spend mega amounts on red tape/directors fees printing//etc the list could go on and on and on .thats why the pay is so pathetic..however throwing away the loss making NHS to the private sector ..that understands a buisness is a buisness and to make £ and still be profitable but to still provides a service that matches ..or even betters the NHS standards  ....is or has got to be looked at ..and it HAS but they darnt try it because they will get tared with the same brush as maggie t   did .. with going  private with  everything ...

we all will be private one day in our med care [as pushed by certain peaple].rember were you heard it last ..

the rooms in bupa are spot on ..you can even order wine aswell as get better...double G and T     .well thank you nurse

Well if you want private health care gentlemen, I hope you never develope any problems, one of my American mates has a diabetic wife, he says the cost of the drugs is horrendous.

Its costs about £5,000 to have a baby.

To have a child like my son would just about bankrupt you.

The NHS needs some fiddling with, but in principle its unbeatable.

It seems to actually be getting worse with the introduction of private money, look at the hospitals with the mrsa problems, oh dear, looks like the new shiney ones have it, the ones that need to make a profit, so skimp on staff !

I receive private healthcare cover as part of my job, and I'm glad to have it because it covers my wife and children too.

I sympathise at the pricing when people have to pay for it because whilst basic cover isn't overly expensive Nigel is right when he comments on the long term costs if you have anyone in your family who has, or develops, a long term medical condition.

We're very glad to have it though because it saved my wife a very long waiting list for an important operation - she waited 3 days.

Under the NHS it would have been anticipated 11 months minimum.

You also get the other benefits that make a stay in hospital more tenable.  Your own room, and a good sized one too.  Sky TV!  Kept her busy when she was laid there bored to death!  Very impressive list of meals and services too. The consultant she saw was superb too.

To me, that means that even if I were to ever lose my family cover it would be on the first things I'd seek to get myself anyway.

WE Need another Million ++++++ like you, someone who can understand the smokescreen, is a pack of Lies from Transport for London.Slime Bliar--Knew this would be the result of RED brainwash for the Capitol.If anything Works he can bask in the crap, if not--he distances himself--and blames the colours--RED & BROWN.

You know it makes NONsense

But people keep voting him in.....

Not a problem for me of course, living in the frozen North!

I do have a question for everyone jumping on Mr Blairs back though (and don't misunderstand me, I'm not a keen fan)....who is the viable alternative?

Michael Howard?  Hmm, please no.

Charles Kennedy?  Ahem.

UKIP - there isn't a proper laughing smiley to summarise this one

A. N. Other?  Who?

As I see it, the fact it we're landed with the best of a bad bunch, and it's not going to change in the short term.  He'll be re-elected for sure.

Who said my opinion had anything to do with Michael Howard's persona?

Your argument is true of course, you'll never find the perfect leader in the modern world.

A well known author put the argument that we will never have peace on earth, nor will any of the really 'sensible' decisions ever be taken....not until we're threatened by another life form.

Even then...someone will try cosying up to them...!

ladies and gents

just bring back the iron ladie .and it would all be sorted out ..our maggie never did take any crap from anybody did she ..

Good God you guys certainly know how to have a heated debate!

Well here are my thoughts.

The reason the NHS is failing has less to do with the government and more to do with the rising cost of healthcare. An example of why it is rising is Anti-depressants. How many people were prescribed these a few years ago? Now I bet there arn't many people who at least don't know someone who has been on prosac at some point. The NHS isn't as bad as people make out and it cannot be compared to private health care. That's like comparing a chaufeur driven limo with a Bus!!

The same people who complain about the NHS are probably the same people who don't like it when the government tell us how to live our lives. You want to be able to eat as much fatty foods as you like, smoke as much as you want, drink as much as you want but when the NHS crumbles under the pressure this kind of lifestyle creates 'it's the Governments fault'

Then you have the cost of keeping us all alive as long as possible regardless of whether we want it or not. My Grandmother passed away last year after being on her last legs for ages. In the end she had just had enough but they kept her going for ages! Why!

Anyhow enough of that.

Regardless of the motives for introducing congestgion charging, road tolls etc etc, the government do need to do something about the levels of traffic on our roads. For no other reason other than to prevent the inevitable grid lock we are all heading towards. I live on Teesside and it is starting to get stupid here. I was out the other day at 10:30 in the morning on a Friday and the roads were full, It was no different at 2:30 in the afternoon.

While I don't agree with the charging we desperately need something to ease the road issue. Also WRT the whole Global warming issue, the reason there is disagreement in the scientific comunity as to whether it is happening at all and whether it is is caused by our actions is because no one really knows. Since we have no previous experience of this we have no way of really knowing. Therefore it is just as likley to be a problem as it is not. The reason people choose to believe one side of the argument over the other has nothing to do with understanding the issue, it is about whether that argument fits with what they want. Oil companies are not even going to listen to both sides of the argument, they will just follow the view that makes them most money. the same could be said of the green party. They believe that motorists are killing the planet so they only believe the evidence that supports that argument.

The problem that faces us all is that the things we take for granted are no longer viable long term. The NHS is not able to keep up with the increased cost of looking after us all. Final salary pensions are no longer possible for many of us since they are linked to a volatile stock market and we are living too long after retirement. The road network in this country will soon not be able to cope with the level of traffic. when oil runs out, and it will, the internal combustion engine will disappear for ever. These are just a few examples.   

Peter Fenwick---Steady +++  the o'l brains doing overtime.

Lets remind you of forgotten Facts,!!!! Your mate Slimy B and the Magicians, warned the Taxpayer and you, that if we wanted a decent NHS, one that we could rely on and trust in our hours/days/years/of Waiting---WE must pay for it.SO--TAX would Have to be increased, and SO it came to pass, +++++£££££.Result is 100% extra Targets with the staff to go with it, SO MANY rules & Regs-you need more staff to keep up with it.

THE Increased £££,ss taxpayer is still waiting for the "NEW NHS world" to begin.Nigels Wife, is wondering WHY she gets £5 PH for wiping someones Arze,--when Slime has just said the Min wage is £5-05 an hour(Its election time init)  Slime Brown--wants to Give £10, 000, 000, 000-  THATS £10 billion-- to oversea,s countries-BUT --NOT his Country First-second-++++++++++First you look after yer own.SO-- you see  PF-- LOTS of things ARE viable if you use the Taxpayers wages that Slime said he Must have, on the Subject he lied about.

Millions of Taxpayers, went without many things, no holidays-same cars kept-- same house-paying for kids Private Education & Health-Just to save for their Pension-not a drain on the state, just to enjoy the later years in comfort--Like those Slimey politicians on £160K a Year AND inflation proof Pensions--and retire when it Suits THEM.BUT--whats this--The Workers who have planned for their futures are told to WORK till you are 70.So as to save more taxpayers money being paid to Taxpayers.NOT only that, BUT SlimeBrown can steal £5, 000,000,000 from Taxpayers Pension funds AND TAX savings for the future.

AS you correctly point out, WE are living TOO long after  managing to survive , IN SPITE of Slime-- SO the master Plan is(Bet YOU sussed it out before the others) MRSA -Keeps the Numbers down and waiting list,s eh!!.

PF-- Just a short distance away thru a tunnel or on a ship, is another World mate, NOT perfect---BUT, their people,s have a happier time, with less persecution and Gloom , and enjoy a life IS for living-cos its very short--shame yer mates dont get a real life , a bit more.init!!!! BUT--of course they DO--off they go, on their jolly,s--PF  YOURE paying this time, I paid last time.

therealmccoy wrote: Isn't it nice to have a nice, healthy debate without having your car or house brought into the equation!!

Very!

therealmccoy wrote: Never forget the Michael Howard believes in prisons - not community service...

Ah yes he does...but if he were to get into power (which he won't, but lets just say there is a total block on all labour voting and he does get in) he'd soon change his mind when he found how much more money he was going to have to raise through taxing us to keep them all behind bars....

Everyone wants more prisons - until they find out how much it costs.

Well here are some official figures for you (from the National Probation Service for England & Wales):

Cost of a Community Rehabilitation Order and Fulfilment:

£1,710

Cost of a Community Pubishment Order and Fulfilment (formerly known as a Community Service Order):

£1,500

Cost of putting someone into Prison for a year

£22,000

Now, put that into the further context of how much the existing Prison Service costs to run.

There are 128 prison establishments with a workforce of over 48,000 staff.

Annual running costs?  2003-2004......£2 BILLION

So the monies from the Dome would be, well, a drop in the ocean.

HM Prison Service actually accounts for 16% of the whole amount spent on the Criminal Justice System!

At the end of March 2004 there were 68,500 prisoners in the above.

That actually means that the REAL cost of keeping someone in prison for a year is almost £30,000 - and that is without the cost of new prison developments being taken into account.

Plus, £224 MILLION was spent on increasing capacities during 2004.

So the investment is there.  The point is that to do anything more would have to hit the taxpayer - and as you can see the monies are huge!

I'm not saying I don't think we should.  Personally, I'd like to see harder line.  It's just that Mr Howard knows fine well that the true resolution to the problem is a lot harder than he makes it out to be.

It's a good vote winner for him if the public are quite so fickle as to believe the headline of what ANY politician says though!

If you look at my previous post I did actually say I'd prefer to see the harderline - but that it's not as easy to implement as it is to say it.

On the Blair getting in by pretending to be friends of Celebs etc - that's just not true.

He got in because the British public had tired of Conservative 'in-party' fighting and the absolute lack of a credible leader. 

That's doesn't mean I'm a Socialist (well, neither are labour..) and it doesn't mean I'm anti-Tory.  In fact I'd consider myself very much floating voter at the moment because I always consider each party/leader on their own own merits and policies at the the time of voting.

As things stand though, I just don't see Howard as a credible leader and I think he's done himself and his party an incredible amount of damage with the latest Health Service spin of this week.  The way they have used the patient in question is utterly appalling, and even the patient has expressed her "disappointment" with the way her case has been used.

B 7 VP wrote: Peter Fenwick---Steady +++  the o'l brains doing overtime. Lets remind you of forgotten Facts,!!!! Your mate Slimy B and the Magicians, warned the Taxpayer and you, that if we wanted a decent NHS, one that we could rely on and trust in our hours/days/years/of Waiting---WE must pay for it.SO--TAX would Have to be increased, and SO it came to pass, +++++£££££.Result is 100% extra Targets with the staff to go with it, SO MANY rules & Regs-you need more staff to keep up with it. THE Increased £££,ss taxpayer is still waiting for the "NEW NHS world" to begin.Nigels Wife, is wondering WHY she gets £5 PH for wiping someones Arze,--when Slime has just said the Min wage is £5-05 an hour(Its election time init)  Slime Brown--wants to Give £10, 000, 000, 000-  THATS £10 billion-- to oversea,s countries-BUT --NOT his Country First-second-++++++++++First you look after yer own.SO-- you see  PF-- LOTS of things ARE viable if you use the Taxpayers wages that Slime said he Must have, on the Subject he lied about. Millions of Taxpayers, went without many things, no holidays-same cars kept-- same house-paying for kids Private Education & Health-Just to save for their Pension-not a drain on the state, just to enjoy the later years in comfort--Like those Slimey politicians on £160K a Year AND inflation proof Pensions--and retire when it Suits THEM.BUT--whats this--The Workers who have planned for their futures are told to WORK till you are 70.So as to save more taxpayers money being paid to Taxpayers.NOT only that, BUT SlimeBrown can steal £5, 000,000,000 from Taxpayers Pension funds AND TAX savings for the future.   AS you correctly point out, WE are living TOO long after  managing to survive , IN SPITE of Slime-- SO the master Plan is(Bet YOU sussed it out before the others) MRSA -Keeps the Numbers down and waiting list,s eh!!. PF-- Just a short distance away thru a tunnel or on a ship, is another World mate, NOT perfect---BUT, their people,s have a happier time, with less persecution and Gloom , and enjoy a life IS for living-cos its very short--shame yer mates dont get a real life , a bit more.init!!!! BUT--of course they DO--off they go, on their jolly,s--PF  YOURE paying this time, I paid last time.

B7VP, I love the way you suggest that I am merely ignorant of the situation.

I don't like politicians, whatever party they stand for, and the government we have are far from perfect. However I don't think they are out to screw us any more than anyone else. It is human nature to want more for yourself when you are in a position of power. It happens in every country to a greater or lesser extent. 

With respect to the money given in overseas aid, well I disagree. The people receving the aid are imeasurably worse off that us and to suggest otherwise is just plain wrong. This point comes down to a difference of opinion.

People can harp on about how bad the NHS is all they like, but I've never been private and never had a problme with it, nor have any of my family. There will always be examples of bad service and people who have been let down, why? because there are not limitless resoures and it is run by human beings. The other point is how would you feel if you worked for an organisation that was constantly being used as a political football and having to listen to people telling you how crap it is. It certainly wouldn't motivate me.

So politicians get 160K a year. If I was doing that job I'd want that kind of money. How much responsibillity do they have to shoulder? Far more than anyone who uses this forum I'll wager. If you make a mess at work, which everyone does from time to time, is your face splashed accross the front of the paper?  these people might get paid a lot but they have a lot less freedom than the rest of us.

As for your comments about Europe, this just sounds like 'the grass is always greener on the other side'. Sure living in Europe may have some advantages, but it's swings and roundabouts. If you think europe is so great, will you be voting to adopt the european constitution?

If you think MRSA is designed to kill us off a bit sooner then you are indead insane!! A master plan!, I think not. Like I said, bugs are getting more resistant to antibiotics because of their overuse. Sure the problem may not be as bad if say cleaning hospitals was not contracted out, but how many places do you know that dont contract out the cleaning??

Oh and stop refering to Tony Blair as my mate, he's not! Just  because i don't think the government are responsible for everything including the recent snow, doesn't mean I like the man.

Finally, it would make it a lot easier for me to understand your points if you wrote in a more clear way. Your posts are like a collection of sound bites

Doive wrote: This is why I dislike our brand of democracy, it's all a popularity contest. Democracy in it's essence works well, but here it is corrupted by the very people who are meant to uphold it. I think I'll move to the south of Ireland.

You have hit on the problem with democracy. It has always been that way but it is getting worse. 

The other problem is that in a free country even the people who's veiws you hate, like the BNP, are allowed to exist.

Spokey, with respect to the charity coment. I agree with your point about a lot of the money charitys raise being taken up in bureaucracy. This si the way of the world these days. Every organisation, including the one I work for seems to be sinking into a sea of pointless paperwork etc.

However, the contries that the goverment provides aid money too are hardly in competition with us. The money is used to stop people starving, like in Africa, and to stop people dying due to having to drink dirty water etc. I am certainly not aware of them funding any of our competitors and even if getting these countries back on their feet again does mean they may at some point in the future be in a position to compete, well I don't care. I'd rather that happened than we just left them to die.

The NHS is the way it is. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

I take the point about government pensions and a lack of tact, but what could they have done to help other peoples pensions? the pension crisis is down to  people living to long and the fact they are linked to the stock market, which is unpredicable. How many companies still offer final salary pensions. I know mine doesn't offer them to new employees any more. If we want to have inflation linked final salary pensions then we either need to die younger or work for longer, or pay more when we are working. IMO all the government is guilty of there is being tactless.

spokey wrote: It's only a popularity contest because the voters allow it to become one.

Very true. If we, the voters, didn't stand for it they'd have to change. But these days so many people don't care anymore. I have spoken to a lot of people who are of the opinion that it doesn't matter who you vote for because they're all as bad as each other.

You do like to plug Micheal Howard!  

I wouldn't vote for him because I don't agree with a lot of the Tory's policies, nothing to do with his image/past connections with Maggie. Although the fact that he came up with pole tax didn't do him any favours in my eyes.

I don't know who I'm going to vote for since I don't have a lot of faith in any of them.   

I'm not convinced charges work at all, they introduced pay parking in Telford centre some time ago, now we have flat £2 charges at the hospitals.

The entrances and exits to the car parks are always jammed as people accidently/deliberately break the machines. It was brought in at the Centre because they put  public and private office buildings around the outside of the ring road with inadequate parking and the workers took over the shopping spaces.

All it achieved was the workers park anywhere they can, on the grass, the pavements - remember the clamped police car, to avoid paying, thus causing more hassle and hazards.

The M6 toll road works well for me, I happily pay to avoid the daily chaos on the main M6, simple volume of traffic causes. There is no easy answer, numbers of cars on the road are going up sharply and the road system on an island canonly be extended so far.

A decent amount of the money ripped off motorists spent on the roads would help, round here if you don't get suspension damage from all the spped bumps you get it from the potholes . Public transport in this area isn't too bad, but in others it's terrible and until it's sorted people will use cars.

spokey wrote: Peter Fenwick wrote: However, the contries that the goverment provides aid money too are hardly in competition with us. The money is used to stop people starving, like in Africa, and to stop people dying due to having to drink dirty water etc. I am certainly not aware of them funding any of our competitors and even if getting these countries back on their feet again does mean they may at some point in the future be in a position to compete, well I don't care. I'd rather that happened than we just left them to die. Gordon Brown's last visit to Africa was not to promote the use of our tax money to feed the starving, nor to purify the water, but to fund their secondary (not primary!) education departments so that, in his words, "they could become more competitive on world markets". And as I said before, even the noble aims of feeding the starving and purifying their water are rarely best served by forking over large amounts of the folding stuff. And even less so when it's one government handing it over to another.

Nothing wrong with helping to educate people from other countries. Education is how you get these people to point where they can start to help themselves more. Just because money isn't the whole solution doesn't mean we shouldn't give it. After all we know that simply giving these people food and water will not solve the problem long term, for that they need education!

I'm with Horsetan, Monster Raving Looney party about as viable as any, think Blair may have done himself and the Labour party enough damage so it'll be hopelessly split.

Since they stabbed maggie in back no-one takes Conservatives seriously, and what are they calling LibDem's this week? Any other country they'dve been a coup d'etat by now!