E30 M3’S
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Category: Technical & Model Specific Forums
Forum Name: BMW ///M Power
Forum Discription: Ask your BMW M Power Technical Questions here (M1, M2 hybrids, M3, M5 & M6)
URL: http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=15066
Printed Date: 02-May-2024 at 04:20
Topic: E30 M3’S
Posted By: 325captain
Subject: E30 M3’S
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 08:57
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Gents, can you tell me if theres any difference in performance between the early 195bhp cars and the later 215bhp cars. The performance figures seem to suggest theres not, any of you guys have first hand experience. i am looking at buying an m3 shortly but have only driven the earlier cars, any info appreciated.
------------- A flight into the world of a man who does not exist! |
Replies:
Posted By: Eamo
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 09:01
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theres not taht much between the 2 although the 215bhp model will have a cat and the other doesnt ------------- |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 09:07
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Very little, certainly not enough to warrant lots more cash (other than for the reason of it being a younger car). Fundamentally, the biggest benefit of the later cars is their tunability, they had the bigger throttle bodies. The power figures also need to be taken with a pinch of salt, most 215er's only make just over 200, most 190/195er's make just about that or a little less. If you want to release power, a remap and cams normally see them well over the factory numbers. i.e mine makes 220 (with cams and remap), and it's specced as a 190 Cat model.
HTH |
Posted By: Mike 90 M3
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 09:54
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So the 215bhp cars have the 48mm throttle bodies then? Didn't know that! |
lancelotII wrote:Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 10:05
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Go for a 215bhp model. Power isn't much different in standard spec, but as soon you start "optimising" it the 215bhp is the better basis. Not only 48mm throttles, the inlet ports in the cylinder head are bigger (26 versus 28mm). Also bigger Airfilter housing.
BTW 195bhp are always with CAT, the 200bhp model is the one without cat. If you are intend NOT to modify it, look for condition of the car rather than spec. A good shell is always worth having. Everything else can be retro fitted. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 10:16
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Uwe, is that right that the 215's had bigger air filter housing ? I know the US cars had the piddly little snorkel and stuff but I didn't realise that the 195 Euro cars airbox was smaller than the late 215's.
Roops |
Posted By: 325captain
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 10:47
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cheers fellas, i think i am leaning toward a later 215 car as i wouldnt mind a few track days (every little helps). I have had a look at a couple of cars but have been a little disappointed in what ive seen, so the hunt goes on?! what do you think i shoud be getting on a budget of 7.5k? ------------- A flight into the world of a man who does not exist! |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 11:01
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Dont' get too anal about mileage. These cars are much better being driven than resting in a garage and driven occassionally. A good wadge of receipts and history is essential. As you have probably read the timing chain issue is overblown so don't get hung up about that either. A well cared for high mileage car, with a good straight body should be findable.
Good luck |
Posted By: Darren M
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 11:26
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I was always surprised that the Evo II only had the 46mm bodies. Why is this, given that it has the best engine bar the Evo Sport? When does the TB become a bottleneck? I`ve heard of 250bhp (just a number I know) evo 2`s still with t he 46`s.
Always been curious about the 46vs 48mmm TB`s, wondering what kinda of BHP levels do the 46`s become a problem :) |
Posted By: Nostrils
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 12:00
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325captain. I think you will be OK with that money. I would look at the bodywork especially for the usual rust spots near the windscreen door areas. There are a few out there, so take your time and get the car you want.....I was a little hasty with mine, but despite that I am over the moon with it and its coming up to its 6th birthday in my hands! ------------- Phil |
Posted By: Chris Miller
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 12:44
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Also check the front of the sills just behind front wheel arch.
There looks like a metal box shape which people think is a jacking point. They use these to jack the car up which can cause damage and eventually results in rust.
Had to have this repaired on one side of my car. ------------- |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 12:51
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Darren, the EVO2 head has got the big inlet port and the 46mm throttles are bigger at the "head side" as the standard 46mm throttles. So in reality we have 3 sets of throttles.
46mm with small inlet head ports 46mm with big inlet head ports 48mm with same inlet port size than EVO2 The 215bhp engine is basically a EVO2 engine with lower compression pistons and 48mm throttles. Roops, as far as I know the 195hbp cars do have the same airfilter housing as the US cars (or the other way round whatever you prefer). It's just the lower section of the housing and the inlet trumpet going to the bumper. I am hunting for one (Kevin  ) as I am told that the lower section on it's own is NLA, you need to buy the whole box to get hold of one. Haven't checked that at the dealer myself, might be one off these myth's.
------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Rob L
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 13:19
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Another good thread - never realised there were so many diferences in
the ports. :) |
Posted By: Nostrils
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 13:23
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Here are the difference of the lower housings...
http://e30m3performance.com/installs/2.5_rebuild/airbox/airbox1.htm - Airbox Difference and install 
 ------------- Phil |
Posted By: Simon325i sport
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 15:22
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I'm also looking for a new lower airbox section, as mine is broken, and I need the later type. Weird really as I was only checking on the ETK on the weekend, and it will not show the part number for the lower section on it's own, so Uwe, it looks like what you've heard is right! ------------- 
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Posted By: M3Nally
Date Posted: 02-March-2005 at 16:15
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So why did they not build the Evo Sport with high compression pistons like evo2 to get nearer 250bhp. After all 18bhp with 48mm TB's is not alot more than my evo2 at 220bhp with only 2.3l engine.
Was there a power restriction for racing as well as engine size in DTM at the time? |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 04:02
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..because higher compression engines need higher octane fuel, with the advent of unleaded, there was no equivalent of 5 star around at the time. Therefore, BMW probably thought it would be a load less hassle (owners returning pinking cars..) just to build the evo sport with the l/c pistons. Also, remember the Evo concept of these cars was all about getting items homologated for racing. They already had the h/c pistons available from the evo2 so probably didn't need to build the evo sport with them, to allow them to be used for racing.
As for the power restrictions, none. The only limits were written into the Group A regs that allowed homologated items. (Anyone remember Audi getting stripped of their championship because they had used un-homolgated engines parts in their V8) Roops |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 04:15
If it makes 238bhp....... Have said that many times, the EVO2 is probably the best M3 in STOCK condition. They all make 220bhp or very close! ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 04:29
Ahhhh, then I already have the big collector box. The only issue with mine is that the previous owner thought it would flow loads more air by by drilling holes in the back of it........obviously, simple physics wasn't his strong point.... |
Posted By: M3Nally
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 04:35
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Roops,
Thanks for that info, it figures. I will have to get mine up on some rollers to find out then. First I want to get the valve clearances checked and have the TB's balanced. Anyone on here in the Essex/ Suffolk/ Norfolk area got the kit to do my valves? My usual mechanic hasn't got the shim kit and otherwise it would have to be a dealer. Cheers Kevin |
Posted By: 215m3
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 05:19
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Kevin
Speak to Dave as he might have one as he builds his engines from what i've heard. ------------- Toby http://www.bmminiparts.com - New Genuine BMW & Mini OEM parts - www.bmminiparts.com 1987 E30 M3 with turbo being added |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 07:33
What is quoted by the manufacturers is the static compression ratio which has little relevance to the engine when it is running. See http://e30m3performance.com/myths/more_myths1/comp_ratio/comp_ratio.htm - HERE for more details Steve |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 09:10
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another advantage of the later cars (i think) is that straightforward bog standard unleaded is ok
whereas on earlier cars it's ok but with a power loss Uwe?? |
Posted By: M3Nally
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 10:05
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Toby,
Cheers, which Dave is that then and what is his number? PM please if don't want to give details on here. Kevin |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 10:24
Nothing to do with earlier or newer cars. ALL M3's are running fine with unleaded, EXECPT the EVO2 which always should be run on 98 Oktan fuel because of the ignition timing. If you want to run the EVO2 on any fuel with less than 98Oktan you need to "switch" the ECU to the 95Oktan map. Or take your chances....... ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Coasting
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 10:57
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I run my E46 on Optimax only. If I get really desperate I'll go with BP Ultimate, but find a definate difference if I use anything less than that. ------------- 
Now with FREE HPI CHECK and FREE GLASSES GUIDE VALUATIONS for all members! |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 11:02
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Coasting,
you engine has a knock sensor fitted which senses the quality of fuel used and adapts the ignition accordingly. Our old bangers don't do this. So if you fill it up with lower Oktan petrol than mapped it goes BANG! BTW that BP stuff is crap. It burns faster than I can fill the tank up! And smells funny. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 11:39
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Uwe - the informationmeister...
thanks for that - always stayed clear of early cars because i thought unleaded would be a problem - infact i bottled out and bought an evo sport so i was certain it would be a late one... |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 03-March-2005 at 12:03
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Jonners, not the lead is the issue. The Oktan rating of the petrol. And of course if a catalytic converter is fitted than unleaded is a must, whatever Okan it is.
But I believe you're not unhappy with your "mistake"  ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 04-March-2005 at 04:06
Exactly the reason why I had mine mapped on std unleaded, as I couldn't be certain that I would always be able to get the high octane stuff. |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 04-March-2005 at 07:12
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Or you know somebody clever mapping your car on 98 AND 95 and you use the fuel quality wires to switch between the maps ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: kevs635csi
Date Posted: 04-March-2005 at 14:46
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what about my cecotto what does that supposed to use , i just stick normal unleaded in -------------  cool as the fonz!!
|
Posted By: 215m3
Date Posted: 04-March-2005 at 14:50
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Kev
It all depends on which clips are connected. There next to the ecu on the left. one blue and one black. there quite long thin connectors as well. both connected and should run on Ron 98 {optimax), blue only connected Ron 95 is ok. ------------- Toby http://www.bmminiparts.com - New Genuine BMW & Mini OEM parts - www.bmminiparts.com 1987 E30 M3 with turbo being added |
Posted By: kevs635csi
Date Posted: 04-March-2005 at 15:32
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ill have a look soon , is the ecu under the glovebox or on the drivers side on the m3 (cant remember) normal e30s its above the s/column, i used to be a vauxhall mech years ago & they had a simelar thing of an octane pug which you simply turned over ,one side for 95ron & the other for 98ron they were colour coded too for different models ------------- cool as the fonz!!
|
Posted By: Darren M
Date Posted: 04-March-2005 at 16:21
| It`s inside the glovebox.Easy to get to - just a few screws to remove. |
Posted By: 215m3
Date Posted: 04-March-2005 at 16:43
Here's a pic from Uwe's posting on another thread. The green arrow points to a black block, but it's the connecter, the same shap as the blue one just above/behind it.
This will give you some idea. HTH's ------------- Toby http://www.bmminiparts.com - New Genuine BMW & Mini OEM parts - www.bmminiparts.com 1987 E30 M3 with turbo being added |
Posted By: Rob L
Date Posted: 04-March-2005 at 17:47
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So does this apply to my Sport Evo, should i always run super U 98
(optimax normally) Is it ok to run 95 standard stuff now and then when you cant get any super U? Will it have this plug you mentioned to switch between the grades? |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 01:48
Yes it does. I find my Sport Evo runs best with both connectors connecter (98 RON Map) but running on 95 RON unleaded. Smoother idle, more responsive on part throttle and will still hit the limiter in top even with the front/rear spoilers in position 2/3 respectivly. The standard MAPs are quite consevative I think that running this way is closer to the optimum when using good quality fuels. Steve |
Posted By: 215m3
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 03:03
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Gary used to runs his SE on normal 95 and he's not sure if both connectors are connected but suspect it is. He does/did get some pinking, but now runs on 98. ------------- Toby http://www.bmminiparts.com - New Genuine BMW & Mini OEM parts - www.bmminiparts.com 1987 E30 M3 with turbo being added |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 04:04
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Ok again.
DO NOT RUN 95 OKTAN fuel with the 98 Oktan map!!!!!!!! Have a guess why this map is called 98 Oktan map? The better response is coming from the "sharper" ignition timing. But this could only be done because 98 Oktan is used. Anything less will cause pinking --> destruction! I can put you in touch with a fellow M3 owner blowing his engine up that way. The danger lies in the high speed pinking at WOT. You cant hear it, but this does the most damage. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 06:08
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Uwe,
There is no difference in the running on my car between the 95 map with 95 fuel and the 98 map with 98 fuel. It rus exactly the same, The maps are conservative as standard and running 95 on the 98 map seems to bring the ignition timing closer to the optimum. I have pulled aplug after a sustained highspeed run and the colour seemed fine, indicating the cylinder tempretures are normal. I have some litreture at home regarding the relationship between C/R and Fuel octane and it makes interesting reading. It suggests that only high compression and F/I engines benefit from the higher octane. There are dyno tests that prove that some engines of more moderate C/R loose out when using higher octane fuel. It won't matter soon any way as I'm ordering the MOTEC Kit next week 
Steve |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 06:56
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Steve,
it's entirely up to you how you run your car. As you can't really floor your car for a longer time over here, and that includes track day's (how long are you on full throttle on a traack, 20 sec?), it might not blow your engine up in a few weeks. If you dare it then that's your choice. i simply won't. And since we are runnig lead free, you can't really judge by reading the colour of the plug. And a 10.5 CR is low compression to you? ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 07:08
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Uwe, 10.2 on the Sport Evo I think. My old Civic Type R ran on 95 even with 11:1 C/R. It did run better on 98 but I would expect that as it had a knock sensor.
A lot depends on the combustion chamber shape and I believe the S14 to be quite good in this respect, allowing for an even burn. When I get home I'll look through my books and find the artical let you know the details. Steve After I've fitted and mapped the MoTeC of course 
|
Posted By: Mike 90 M3
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 10:00
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I can notice a difference between the two maps, it is quite subtle though. It's mainly the mid range that's improved. As far as i understand it, the octane rating of the fuel makes no difference to the perfomance of an engine on its own. It merely allows you to advance the ingition or increase the comp ratio without detonation. And its these changes to the engine that give the power. Obviously with modern knock sensors allowing the engine to advance its own ignition, it can seem like its the fuel that makes the difference. I have also heard that higher octane fuels can actually reduce the power of an engine, if used alone. |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 10:46
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Your spot on there Mike!
As for the difference between the S14 95 and 98 MAPs, I would but a weeks wages on an ignition re-map for 95 not being more than 2 degrees different to the standard 98 MAP. Where's ChippedUKBRO? Steve |
Posted By: kevin
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 11:33
Uwe - I still have the "modified" one waiting for when we next meet. Cheers ------------- Kevin '04 E46 330Ci Convertible '08 E61 535d Touring (TorqueMeister Towbarge) ’95 E34 M5 ’89 E30 M3 (Cecotto) |
Posted By: Darren M
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 11:47
 [/QUOTE]I needed a new lower airbox after I discovered a PO had cut a great big hole in it. The p/n is 13.71.1.312.330.
[/QUOTE] That sounds good. Why didn`t BMW know what they were doing when they spent there mucho £££££££ on development work on these cars. I mean someone, probably with no engineering background digs out his drill, puts a nice big whole in the side of the airbox and voila - modified for more power........ OR NOT . Was it just a round hole? I heard that cutting a shape like a "meat and two veg" adds even more power!!!! |
Posted By: kevin
Date Posted: 05-March-2005 at 12:03
Here is a photo of the old lower airbox........it wasn't a simple get
the drill out job. It is a bit of a mystery but the car is a lot
better with the correct item fitted.
------------- Kevin '04 E46 330Ci Convertible '08 E61 535d Touring (TorqueMeister Towbarge) ’95 E34 M5 ’89 E30 M3 (Cecotto) |
Posted By: M3Nally
Date Posted: 17-March-2005 at 14:40
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Uwe,
I was always under the impression that the Evo2 had 48mm TB's, cos I thought I read it somewhere. I took my car up to German cars today to get the valves and Tb's done (tomorrow) and was chatting to Wayne who has alot of experience in racing, buying and selling and S14 mechanics and he said yes the Evo2 came with 48mm TB's, however has found quite a few evo2 with 46mm TB's because the bigger ones had been nicked and replaced with 46mm ones . I will ask him to have a look at mine tomorrow if they get the chance to see how big they are. Kevin |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 17-March-2005 at 17:47
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Evo2's do come with 46mm Throttles. Period.
The airhorns do have a second embossed ring casted if you want to cut them in length. I have the BMW press release printed in my folder. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: M3Nally
Date Posted: 18-March-2005 at 03:48
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Uwe, Could I have a copy of that for my file?
Much obliged Kevin |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 18-March-2005 at 05:04
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you can look it up on s14motorsport.de in "ARCHIV"
http://www.s14.ctmnet.de/0022/0022.htm - TRY HERE ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: M3Nally
Date Posted: 18-March-2005 at 06:26
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Brilliant Uwe,
Unfortunately my O level German (showing my age) didn't cover engineering technical terms, so I will have to see what a laugh I get from babelfish! Have a good weekend all, don't go mad with the good weather. Kevin |
Posted By: M3Pilot
Date Posted: 18-March-2005 at 07:06
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The Evo 2 does use 46mm TB's, but they are made from the same casting that the 48 mm TB's are make from.
The standard 46 mm TB's use a smaller casting. You can get these machined to take 48 mm butterflies, but there isn't enough meat in the casting to get the throat area (the part that bolts to the head)out to the same dimensions as the stock 48 mm TB's. You can read about this on Gustave site. |
Posted By: Darren M
Date Posted: 18-March-2005 at 07:33
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So when do the 48`s become more important? Are they a straight bolt on for an Evo 2, as the ports are bigger anyway?
I would assume that as the Evo 2 model had many upgrades to allow the race cars to run with these pieces and the 46`s were still retained, the 46`s must be good enough for big HP anyway. Finally in late 1989, 48`s were used on the road cars. |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 18-March-2005 at 08:22
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Having been brought up on gold old carbs rather than injection there's one consideration that occurs to me that is often missed when folk get in to the nitty gritty re throttle bodies
Larger throttle bodies mean that the engine can breathe more air But that extra air must flow faster because there's a limit to the amount of fuel a certain amount of air can carry at certain speeds to get the benefit of better breathing capacity the engine must be able to rev faster to keep the speed of the incoming mixture high that's just what you want for a high revving machine with a peaky power band but can be very boring on a road car we all know that modern injection, engine management and so forth mean that these compromises can be engineered out to a certain extent, and I am the last one to doubt BMW's ability to get it right on these fabulous cars - but remember they are quite highly tuned as standard the point i think it worth making is that the smaller throttle bodies aren't sub optimum unless you have specific tuning in mind the comics we all read i think are responsible for making us all feel that like an airfix kit we should try to assemble all the right bits without thinking of the overall package i would only worry about bigger throttle bodies if i was going to do motorsport...and that doesn't include trackdays (because the lack of an extra 25bhp wouldn't ruin my day since the clock isn't running) then again if i had the choice between a later car and an early one i'd go for the later one for the bigger throttle bodies have i just argued myself into a corner?? |