Hi,

did anyone check this car out for you? brakes, ball joints, tyres, wheel bearings, handbrake and probably gaskets could all have been spotted beforehand and on a road test!

Touch wood my E36 costs MOT, Tax and (roughly) an oil service a year. if I spend about £500 that would be about right.

Don't make the mistake of tarring all BM's with that brush.

With regard to the figures, maybe someone may have all this data somewhere???

Cracking motor when fixed up - I still miss mine badly.

Ouch. That seems like a whole shedload of money but it can creep up on you. Owning a slightly older car is great if you can manage to do the vast majority of the servicing work yourself, such as change the engine oil, brakes, suspension, coolant or at least take it to a reputable garage who won't charge the earth. My E28 has a stack of bills you could choke a horse with from the first owner who maintained it with a specialist regardless of cost. It seems every six months he would send it in for work to be done, coming away with bills of 300-400 quid and up to 600 when MoT was required. This does seem expensive at first glance, but then BMW engineering is of such high standard that specialist repairers really are the only way to go. It's unlikely a back street garage that services a mk3 Fiesta will have the knowledge to service a BM competently - that isn't to say they do a bad job, just that they won't have the marque knowlegde a specialist has.

These days it is easy to spend 300 quid servicing a Vectra or Mondeo, I know because I've been there. Appreciate the fact that crawling around under your car on a saturday might not be your idea of fun, so if you do a little hunting around your area and find a good specialist there is no reason why you couldn't run your car on a reasonable budget. 2000 quid a year does seem a little pricey to me, I would probably spend at most 500 for service parts and MoT, but then I do all the work myself and that does save a load in labour rates. Hopefully this addresses question one!

My 535i (1990) which I had for about 18 months cost me 4 tyres, an MOT (£100), an oil service and 2 years road tax. I did make it go bang but that was my fault and I don't recommend it!

Yes, I was lucky but they really are made of granite.

However a lot that I looked at really had been driven hard. Nature of the beast unfortunately.

I hope you get her sorted because they really are good, and like a heroin habit- life feels like somethings constantly missing when they're gone!

To be honest the biggest stumbling block to repairing a car like a BMW is not the technical complexity, but the personal confidence of the owner! I saved the car from a scrapyard, so any work I do on it is with the view that if I seriously screw it up, it can go back to the scrapyard. Of course I would never send her back, but it's developed a worst case mentality that allows me the confidence to do most jobs. You describe a timing belt change, that is one job I could not attempt myself for fear of doing it wrong, so things like that have to be left to a specialist who will have done it hundreds of times.

Routine maintenance is not beyond the abilities of even the most ham-fisted mechanic. I would not describe myself as having above average abilities, but I feel there is nothing in a service schedule that I could not at least attempt. This probably comes from having the chevette in component parts, a fairly simple learning curve as everything was straight forward. The beauty of BMW engineering is that everything comes apart easily. Things like a disc and pad change is fairly simple, if you can change a wheel then you can probably change a brake disc! I would suggest buying an older car if funds allow, something simple and cheap that if anything goes seriously wrong you can just punt off to the scrapyard - try a mk2 fiesta. I wouldn't suggest a chevette as I don't want another of those scrapped! Then just systematically take things apart and put them back together, it's a fun way of learning.

not sure if there are any specialists your way, there is a 'good service' thread in the gen tech area I think? All these are recommended by us in here.

good luck!

Doive wrote: To be honest the biggest stumbling block to repairing a car like a BMW is not the technical complexity, but the personal confidence of the owner! I saved the car from a scrapyard, so any work I do on it is with the view that if I seriously screw it up, it can go back to the scrapyard. Of course I would never send her back, but it's developed a worst case mentality that allows me the confidence to do most jobs. You describe a timing belt change, that is one job I could not attempt myself for fear of doing it wrong, so things like that have to be left to a specialist who will have done it hundreds of times. Routine maintenance is not beyond the abilities of even the most ham-fisted mechanic. I would not describe myself as having above average abilities, but I feel there is nothing in a service schedule that I could not at least attempt. This probably comes from having the chevette in component parts, a fairly simple learning curve as everything was straight forward. The beauty of BMW engineering is that everything comes apart easily. Things like a disc and pad change is fairly simple, if you can change a wheel then you can probably change a brake disc! I would suggest buying an older car if funds allow, something simple and cheap that if anything goes seriously wrong you can just punt off to the scrapyard - try a mk2 fiesta. I wouldn't suggest a chevette as I don't want another of those scrapped! Then just systematically take things apart and put them back together, it's a fun way of learning.

spot on old chap!

it really is down to confidence. don't start a job that you are afraid of and always have a backup.

You may have experienced this; I have with my father and brother; it is so easy (not 100%) to walk into a job that someone else has got into difficulty with and pull it off without a hitch. maybe I am just lucky!

Start with motorbike engines, they are dead simple....

Hi automatix,when i bought my e39 i was equally unlucky i had a AA car check done before i purchased the car off a friend of a friend and all was well apart from a tyre was needed on the front.After having the car for about a month the passenger occupancy sensor mat went haywire,front balljoints,new rain sensor for the windscreen,windscreen wiper relay and new rear tyres.When i approached the AA and asked why they had not picked up on these items they said that because the car was over 100,000 miles they could not guarantee any parts as wear and tear and age all have a part once the car has travelled over 100,000 miles!!Never told me that when i was handing over my cash!!!!!!!!.

I know some of these parts are wear and tear so i can accept that but i would say that even though it has cost me dearly in the last 8 months i wouldn't want to be without it! This is my 3rd BMW and i can't see myself selling it as it does everything i need it to do and wouldn't want to be parted with it!!

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I would suggest that now you've spent all that money on the car it will probably run like a dream and other than the usual service bills, tyres and tax wont cost you a great deal more.

I can sympathise with you. I had a similar experience myself with an E39 540i (repairing - mega bucks), and as I said, once the issues where all sorted it was a beatiful car and ran perfectly. Bitter pill to swollow knowing you spent all that dosh though I know.

Hope it all turns out ok for you!

Automatix

It happens to us all at some point, getting stung.  The problem is that when its a complex car like a 5, its going to cost to put it right or get out of it.

By now you know, and you'll probably never make the same mistake again, that preparation is the key.  Some of the mistakes could probably have been picked up on if you had checked all the buttons, etc., others would only have been picked up on if you were armed with some more specific knowledge about the 5's.

At the end of the day, there are few substitutes for instinct, when its combined with thinking with your head rather than your heart.  When you think with your heart you overlook obvious evidence and will yourself to believe that all is OK.

My experience of getting stung was a good few years ago with a mk2 Golf GTI.  I knew enough about cars to have recognized signs that it wasn't all it seemed, if I had had the good sense to acknowledge them.

Nowadays, I believe a small fraction of anything a vendor tells me, check everything twice, verify everything I'm told, cross check it all with HPI, Dealer service records, invoices, etc. and if there is any discrepency I walk away.  Finding a car is like waiting for a bus, there'll be another along shortly.

My experience with BMW's is that they do serve well and provide value for money.  Over the past 6/7 years I've put probably 140k miles on a half a dozen BMW's.  There have been no catastrophic failures (touch wood!).  Occassionally they will swallow a bunch of cash in a short time, but it usually evens out over time.  My 523i neaded a rear ball joint at the last service and its probably going to need a cat and a few shocks any time now, but with those things done, I'm confident that it'll be back to nothing more than standard service bills for a while. 

The way I look at it is that I don't begrudge the old girl a bit of pampering once in a while and she returns the compliment by keeping me happy.  Like life really!

I must concede that it is difficult to find a specialist who is worthy of the title. I went to a German car specialist to do the work on the 525e and he more or less told me to get lost, that he wasn't interested. The guy had about four Porsche 928's in the garage, so he clearly is only interested in fixing complex cars that he knows nobody else will touch, and for the privilege he charges the owners whatever he likes. It's not as if they are going to care, most of them have pots of money! Perhaps he smelled my skintness.

Word of mouth is a powerful thing, so if you're ever in Edinburgh avoid Brian Miller German car specialist - for German see Porsche, for specialist see grumpy git! Anyway, word of mouth will no doubt lead you to a worthwhile specialist around your area. Failing that have a chinwag with your local BMW dealer, they may be good enough to recommend someone. The guy you found sounds to be a con merchant.

Automatix,

Read your comments about brakes prices from GSF but beware! Their discs are Brembo - these are fine and are on my 540 now. Their pads are Textar and you do not want these! I went for BMW pads but there is a decent 3rd party brand available - Jurid I think??

Brembo discs and BMW pads and a new wear sensor (GSF one fine) all fitted by Benstens (good independent but nowhere near you) came to about £200 all in which is good VFM IMHO.

Just like bad shops, there are bad customers. The worst are the hypochondriacs who want parts at half price installed in half the time while paying back street shop hourly rates and expecting the same quality as genuine parts installed by qualified technicians.

The key to prevent getting "stung" is part genetics, part initiative, part common sense, and a splash of reality. While most can probably figure out how to put fuel in a tank, not everybody can learn how to replace something as simple as brake pads. That's genetics. There's a level of mechanical aptitude required to pick up a spanner. It’s too bad really, you'd think an intelligent person with enough study can do anything. Unfortunately, mechanical ability is just something that can't be learned.

Without initiative you won't search out the answers, strive to learn the idiosyncrasies, basically expecting to have everything spoon fed. Common sense and a splash of reality are obviously essential to deal with any situation and successfully negotiate the corrective action without drama.

In truth, when a mechanic can't repeat the customer's problem, he has to go on hunches and what sounds best in laymen’s terms when it comes to explain his theory. "Oh you have a handling problem? Hmm... nothing seems obvious... uh... well we need to replace a bunch of various suspension bits. Yeah, that should cure your ghost."

Sometimes a customer's demeanor reflects the service he or she gets, even the fixes the garage is willing to perform. What a customer is willing to try, allow, or expect etc, is usually determined within a few minutes of them walking in the door. "My car is making a funny sound," that's the best. Somebody can go under there, do an honest search, find nothing really, but fix or adjust something and the customer walks away feeling happy they were right, there was something wrong. Many mechanics will be biased on the type of corrective action needed before they even get under the car.

The problem is when mechanics don't take the time to explain that there isn't a problem. That's hard to get people to buy off on. They come in thinking they've got a fault but in reality it's the customer's over active imagination. How do you respectfully attack this? The less honest types pull this off without a hitch, they "find something" and fix it. This is reality.

Jamie, having something go wrong after somebody performs a pre-purchase inspection can't always be the fault of the mechanic that did the inspection. Surely you don’t actually think they remove and dismantle every relay and sensor to test them for possible future failure? All they can go on is what’s working at the time of the inspection.

Now I don’t mean to defend the mechanic so much. An honest mechanic with real ability and modest intensions are like hens teeth and chicken lips; rare. This is what motivated me to take on my own work. Years later, I now do almost everything on my own. If I bring my car to the dealer it’s to use their elaborate alignment machine or comprehensive exhaust gas analyzer.

I apologize for the lack of helpful advice in my post. My intensions were just to highlight a fact not yet pointed out; sometimes poor experiences with cars can be equally blamed on the owner as well as the mechanics.

For the record, I don't own/operate or work in a car shop.

Take care and good luck,

Jake

Automatix wrote: I hate wasting my life waiting in garages and repair shops  and this  "wonderful" motor of mine is forcing me to do just that and that is why I am totally disappointed with it

Cut your losses, sell the car!  stop spending money doing remedial work as you'll never be happy, due to the fact it's disappointed you from day 1. Let someone else have the grief, and then go and test drive a few dealer cars, that way you have comeback when you start finding problems, you get them to sort them out as part of the package.

Private sales are obviously not for you, you don't know what to look for and don't have the technical ability to foresee any future problems and sort them at minimum cost.

For some people private sales obviously don't offer any saving, and that slight mark up on dealer cars is obviously worth it for those individuals.

Financially it will make sense in the long run, as they're too prone to being taken for a ride by garages.  Keep them in the dealer network with regular servicing and give them good history so we can buy them and take the risk at a later date! 

I'm not just talking main dealers, but all reputable dealers.  The service has arisen because certain people need it! 

Good Luck.

Automatix wrote: That is : what is the cut-off point, mileage/age, at which we should be able to say "whither" BMW. It appears that 100,000 miles is BMWs unofficial position based on the figures they seem to quote in cases of  resolution of some design defects  as I  read from some posts.  But there are plenty of cars in the second hand market far beyond this "cut-off" point.  So are we making a mistake of "owning" cars which the manufacturer "disowns"  and spending a lot of our hard earnings trying to fix it ?

I think you've made a bit of a jump in logic by saying that if BMW aren't interested in selling a car greater than X age or Y miles then they can't be any good past that.  Its simpler than that.  There are two things that govern what any dealer will sell.  That is: risk and profit.  As cars get older the proportion of the price of the car that is made up of margin increases because it no longer makes any sense to have a margin that is expressed as a % of the purchase price (10% margin on a £20k car is £2k but no dealer will settle for a 10% margin on a £2k car, its not worth getting out of bed for, so they say they want a profit of, lets say, £500 to cover their costs in sourcing and preparing the car and in covering their other costs, so the margin is 25%).  That covers profit, BMW would have to sell 4 £2k cars to make the same profit as 1 £20k car.  Their customer base is therefore focused on a specific part of the market.

The risk attached to 4 £2k cars is probably higher than 1 £20k car.  That means it is more likely that someone will have a problem with a £2k car than a £20k car, because its reasonable to expect that the £2k car is older and has suffered more wear and tear, maybe has a higher mileage and things will generally be more worn.  The cost of repairs and parts is proportionally higher and therefore the risk of wiping out the profit element in the transaction is higher.  They have a high cost network and big overheads, they want a steady and reliable stream of profit.

From a buyers perspective, it will always be the case that a new or newer car will cost less to run (in terms of maintenance, etc.) than an older, higher mileage car.  Cars DO wear with age, whether they are BMW's or anything more mainstream.  The off-setting cost, or saving, for the individual is depreciation.  The price a person pays for low cost of maintenance with a newer car is that its value falls like crumbling masonry.  Later, when the maintenance costs rise, the depreciation curve has started to flatten out. 

At 3 years old and about 50k miles a 3 series (318iSE, 320iSE, etc.) will have dropped about 50% of its value at trade or trade in values.  If its reasonable to say that its useful life is 10-12 years and/or 130-150k miles then it will only contine to lose maybe 5-7% of its original cost each year in the remaining 5-7 years instead of the 16% or so that it lost in each of the early years.  That probably more than compensates for the additional maintenance costs to the owner.  The problem is that the maintenance costs can't be graphed in a straight line. 

I spent nothing other than normal servicing in the first 30k after I bought my 523i (at 6 years old and 44k miles).  In the past 10k I've replaced a few parts (or will soon) that will be expensive, but the likelihood is that I'll then revert to normal servicing costs and no more for another 20-30k miles.  The total cost of these parts will amount to may 1-2% of the original list price of the car.  The owner before me probably paid more in depreciation on the drive home from the garage when he picked it up.

So, its not reasonable to say that once the BMW dealer isn't interested in the car because of its age, etc. that its useless, but it does seem to me from your comments that you are risk averse (or simply upset that you've been stung - understandably) and that buying cars outside of the main dealer stock profile is not for you.

In my own case, I have a reasonable knowledge of cars and more importantly have learned to walk away (after being burnt a bit myself) and therefore I feel that I'm taking a reasonably calculated risk in buying the way I do (actually, I bought the 523i and my wifes 316i at auction).  I was aware of the risk and also prepared for the fact that there might be some issues that I couldn't discerne in the time I had to inspect the car (and budgeted in my mind some money to spend on them).  In the case of the 523i, the washer pump had failed and cost me €100 in repairs at my dealer.  This was much less than the figure I had budgeted.  No doubt I'll buy something else again that will cost a bit more than I budgeted, that's the element of risk.

Some of the problems you encountered should have been apparent by an inspection by either the outfit that did the job, or maybe by yourself before buying, others are simply the risks you take in buying a second hand car, regardless of make.  It doesn't mean second hand cars are bad, it just means that there is a certain risk profile that you are comfortable with in buying and it looks like in this case you bought something, or in a way, that was inappropriate for you.  In that case I'd just chalk it up to experience.  Every day is a school day.

I've spent far longer on this reply than I had intended!

I would agree with Grobda on this one. His observations are the same as mine, so it would be pointless to list them all again. The most I have ever spent on a car myself is 250 quid, but I bought the Chevette with the full expectation that I would have to replace large amounts of consumables on the car. Since I bought her in august 2003 I have had to replace the entire braking system (200 quid for parts) and the suspension (150 quid for parts), headlights (50 quid), welding (300 quid), work for the last MoT (250 quid) and then the usual servicing bits and pieces, plus all the time I have spent which could have been done by a specialist instead. Basically the car has cost me roughly a thousand pounds in parts in the last year, and the car itself may have a market value at best of £500. Does this make me a mug? Well sure, I could have saved the grand and bought a nice anonymous hatchback for £1250. But then the Chevette has served the purpose I bought it for - it has been a simple mechanical device I could learn how to wield a spanner properly on, and has given great driving pleasure in return.

Those skills and confidence allow me to tackle bigger problems, like the 525e! This is a step up for me in complication, and is a little daunting. But I know if I approach this in the same way as I did the Chevette I should have no problems. I paid 150 quid for the car from a scrapyard, and again I fully expect to pay a fair amount in parts and for work I can't do myself. Today I spent 70 quid on a new timing belt and tensioner from BMW, on tuesday I spent 100 quid on other bits I need and I have already paid 100 quid to the specialist for giving her a good once over and getting her running sweetly. So there we go, I've paid almost double the value of the car in parts since I bought her, but I just know I couldn't get one like her structurally for less than 500 quid.

Basically, if you are after a cheap car then the old motto is to buy as new and as expensive as you can afford, because if you aim to save in the short term by buying one cheap then you will undoubtedly pay in the long term to get bits replaced. this isn't so much a problem if you can do the work yourself. I don't feel as if I got stung, as for both cars I fully expected to pay out some cash for replacement bits. besides, I've enjoyed rebuilding the Chevette and I am currently enjoying working on the 525e as it's all a new challenge!

Interesting comments on the brake change. There is no need to have the car on a ramp, I always do mine on axle stands. Removing the wheels requires a wheel brace and bit of muscle - garages generally use air tools to save time and thwart normal people from taking the wheels off. Ever tried changing a flat tyre after someone has put the nuts on with an air driver?! Anyway, for the disc and pad change you will need a wheel brace, axle stand/bricks(!), a hex driver to remove the calliper and careful use of a hammer/mallet to release the calliper from it's mounting. A manual explains it best but I can go through the whole process for you.

As for the garage taking an hour, well I would certainly expect that at the least. It does take quite a bit of time to get everything off and replaced, and care has to be taken not to damage the flexihose and brake pipes. It usually takes me a couple of hours to complete the job, but I take my time about things and give everything a good poke and a prod while I'm in there. Nothing difficult, I just enjoy doing it.

Brake pads and discs used by BMW tend to be to manufacturers specifications. Expensive pads will use different compounds and materials in the friction surfaces, meaning the pad will grip the disc better and stop it faster, while wearing much more slowly and giving better brake feel. This was clearly illustrated to me when I fitted one of my cars with Halfords discs and pads after having manufacturers spec items fitted - the difference really was night and day, with much poorer braking performance. Even when the pads had bedded in the braking distances were noticeably longer, and the brakes shuddered all the time. At the last MoT it was found that one of the pads had cracked up so I threw them away and fitted original equipment (OE) Ferodo pads - instant improvement in performance. So the motto is that even when they are a few quid more expensive, OE components are designed to match the characteristics of the car and will perform the best during use. Cheap copies are exactly that, designed only to fit the hole left by proper parts and with little thought given to ultimate performance. 

I feel the poor quality of work is more down to individual laziness. Attention to detail and a drive to do the right thing, even when you don't want to, takes enormous amounts of energy. Often times its fruitless, doesn't pay off, and goes unnoticed.

The reason being that normally a customer doesn't know or care how their problem is fixed, as long as its fixed when they drive away. 99% of the time, the quality of work you get is based on those few minutes of interaction between the mechanic and the customer. After all, they wouldn't normally be aware of the kind of attention each component received. It’s the end result that gets noticed.

Did the mechanic replace that questionable bolt or nut? Did he take a moment to pick out all the built up brake dust in the caliper? Everything still went back on and works as it’s supposed to, but maybe the next time around that questionable piece of hardware causes hours of fuss. Or maybe the built up debris around the caliper piston finally takes its toll and begins to bind it up causing the car to pull.

There are millions of details any mechanic will identify during the course of a repair that he or she should take some sort of action on, but don't. They're being paid for one job and time spent anywhere else eats into their profits. Why should they wipe the dirt off the steering rack and re-secure that protection boot while their in there to service the brakes? Is the customer going to know if they don't? Nope. Those 2 factors, laziness and a need to make speedy repairs, are very hard to overcome.

I'd say they usually possess the training and knowledge to do the job right, but I question whether they fully apply it. This nobility is tested most when a car is brought in for trouble shooting; especially when the problem is not clear cut. In the case of your handling woes, the obvious possibilities have been exhausted and the minute ones are numerous, tedious, and difficult to pin down; a true test of a mechanics resilience. The eventual fix may seem trivial and frustrating that it wasn't identified earlier. Unfortunately this is how it goes sometimes.

On the subject of inferior components, this is even more treacherous. Some aftermarket components are perfectly fine and pennies compared to the genuine part, but others are horribly under-speced. Even from the same manufacturer! Take Febi for instance. I'm happy to use their anti-sway bar links, but I feel their control arms are much too prone to wear. I can go through a set of Febi control arms in about a year. The BMW replacements can last you 5 years under the same conditions.

The problem here is the surface hardness spec of the ball joint integral with the control arm. Lemforder is the OEM for the E30 and E34 control arms (possibly others as well). They are the only suitable replacement for tracked cars in my opinion. Lesser brands have been known to fail at the ball and this is down to the heat treatment spec. For a typical road car, the quality and price is quantified in its ability to outlast the others.

The only secret with this particular component is to buy the genuine Lemforder article from an aftermarket source. It will be the exact piece sold by BMW, only the Roundel will be removed. Oh, and the price will be much better.

Brake discs are the same. I've been happy with the ATE replacements for my E34, but when it comes to the E30 M3, the BMW/Balo "Evo" discs are again the only recommended replacements. The benefits of using these instead of other aftermarket discs are well documented for the E30 M3. And again, it comes down to metallurgy.

Now back to those Febi sway bar links, lesser examples are extremely frustrating due to the smallest of details. When you inspect the rubber booty on the ball joint you will see a mold line. The booty on the cheapies have a sharp bend right on the mold line whereas the Febi replacements are nice and round. I've had the no-name brand split on that mold line in less than 30 days. I return them and 30 days later it’s the same thing. So now I use Febi when it comes to these.

What is even more frustrating is when you call up places like Euro Car Parts you can ask for OEM replacements and you won't get it. Trying to get proper Lemforder control arms from them when they push Febi as OEM is very irritating. Especially when the young chap behind the desk doesn't have a clue. He's told Febi is OEM and by god it must be! But it’s not his fault.

Most penny pinchers are happy to be told their splurging on OEM components, and they probably won't notice the difference. On one occasion I walked in to pick up my OEM front hub bearings and the kid pushed across this truly crap product and was adamant it was OE. I couldn't convince him to save my life. I showed him the genuine replacement and he still wouldn't back down claiming it was OEM "quality". Sorry, it was junk. Even the Febi replacement was worlds apart from what he was calling OE. They eventually sourced me a proper SKF hub.

So there are many pitfalls, and it’s taken me a long time to learn to avoid only a few. When it comes down to it, I don't believe anything I'm told unless I can verify it myself. I do my own work because in my experience, given the opportunity others will skimp on your ride. Oh, well I guess I like to turn my own wrenches too. But that’s has been my underlying motivation for a long time.

I just bought the BMW cam timing tool for the quad cam V8 in my 530/540 because I didn't want to trust anybody else to do it, not even my dealer. The tool cost me about £60 more than the 2 hour labor quote they gave me, but I take comfort in verifying the job myself, and hey, I've got a cool tool to keep for the next time.

Jake

Wow, Jake you're a braver man than I am! I won't even tackle the cam belt on the M20 engine. I'm sure if I had a nice cheap car to practice on then it wouldn't be such an issue, but the thought of lunching the change on the big six just doesn't bear my wallet thinking about. I appreciate your viewpoint on the delaers and I would agree wholeheartedly, but the fact remains that there are a small number of committed specialists out there who actually care about your car - you are not just a customer number, you are jake who owns a 530. Also they will likely have a prior knowledge of what needs done when looking at a car, and will remember you when you go back each time so they can build up a working relationship with your car.

At a main dealer or even somewhere like the fast-fit places they have a get them in and out as quick as possible attitude, often meaning that jobs are rushed and not completed as well as they could be. I was getting a couple of tyres on a few months ago, a job I would struggle with to be honest, and I watched a lad of about 17 replacing the brakes on a Corsa (I think - it was something small and anonymous anyway). He was swinging for all he was worth on the calliper retaining bolts, and all I could see was the hex headed bolts shearing - not unknown to happen on a corsa. He was wearing a boiler suit with the words 'Brake Expert' proudly emblazoned on the back of it - something he clearly was not. I wouldn't let him within 50 yards of my brakes. They don't have the same apprenticeship schemes they did years ago, young fellas are now expected to learn instantly and get the cars in and out quickly so they don't get a 'feel' for each car and the various properties unique to each model. Again, another reason I do things myself. I figure if a spotty 17 year old can do it, then by heck so can I.

Interesting thread this....

After many disappointments and several dangerous incidents resulting from letting so-called 'experts' erm... 'service' my car I decided long ago that the only person who would care enough to see that the job was done right would be me.

This policy has cost me time and effort, but I have driven safely for hundreds of thousands of miles.

Incidentally most E34 mechanicals are very durable. With care, M30 engines can last 300K, and many other parts are similarly strong.

However any gadget laden car over ten years old could cost money, so you just need to make sure it all works before you part with your cash.

A service history is nice, but no guarantee. Personally I judge a car on its merits- a wrong'un will always show itself if scrutinised hard enough. 

If you buy a secondhand one which is in need of work, then you are either unlucky or unobservant. Given that you are moaning about worn tyres, then the latter must apply to some extent.

caveat emptor.....

cheers

Automatix wrote: 2.  Unethical of seller is second --- to pass of a car that is not even roadworthy.

To buy a car privately and successfully, then the golden rule has to be to expect no ethics on the part of the seller.  Buyer beware is the only approach, regardless of whether its a Mini or a Maybach.  A BMW owner is no more or less likely to be honest than another.  In the same way that money is no guarantee of taste, a BMW is no guarantee of ethics or conscience.

With utmost respect Automatix, I'd suggest a little naivety in this transaction that I doubt you'll repeat.

I'd be curious to know if the seller was in fact a private seller at all.  Did the name and address onthe reg document tally with the name of the person you dealt with (or who you made the cheque or draft out to) and the address you viewed the car at?

If this is possible that the seller was pretending to be a private seller, then Trading Standards may have an interest in pursuing the matter.  I doubt it will result in any recompense for your time and trouble but it may prevent this person from doing it again.

I'm sorry to hear that you got burned too. I used to think the best of people until proven otherwise, and still do a lot of the time, but when buying secondhand cars I take everything with a pinch of salt, and assume the worst unless proven otherwise.

Any car can be abused to thepoint at which it becomes a complete dog; BMWs are no exception to this rule...

Still with luck there won't be irredeemable faults with the car, and you will get a good one out of it once you have sorted out the wrinkles.

Hope the 'ultimate driving machine' earns its spurs with you and doesn't soil them...

cheers

Automatix

I hope it didn't seem like I was being a PITA in my suggestion.  As Doive said, it happens to all of us at least once and I've detailed my own example of it earlier. 

In an ideal world I wouldn't have to be as suspcious and cynical as I am and in the same situation you wouldn't have encountered the sort of seller you did.  I wish that sellers generally had the same sense of values that you have shown here.

As regards the home address.  I wouldn't think of buying a car from someone if I cannot view it at the address listed on the Reg document.  If they insist on meeting me in a pub or shopping centre car park then I'll politely decline and move on to the next car.  Its too easy to hide less than honourable dealings by showing a car and doing a deal on "neutral" territory.  It throws a buyer off the scent if they need to follow up.  Its not by accident that the motor trade has a reputation in the Arthur Daley vein. 

There are many honest and honourable sellers out there, private and trade, and we want to deal with them, but the others mean that we all need to be cautious in our dealings.  I can't stop anyone else being done by a rogue, but I can take reasonable steps to look out for my own interests by being cautious.

My brother paid a deposit on a car (private sale) a few years ago.  Before concluding it he ran a HPI check and found the car had been a total insurance loss just a couple of months earlier during the apparent tenure of ownership of the seller.  His story was that he and his wife were divorcing and the proceeds were to fund the settlement.  This was used to explain the discrepancy between his address and that on the reg document.  When confronted, he proceeded to call her every variation on the word Witch with a capital B for crashing the car and not telling him about it, etc.  His story could have been true, but generally if it looks like pooh and smells like it, it usually doesn't taste like chocolate.  I'd prefer to give my money away to a charitable cause than have it taken from me by a schemer.

Sorry if anyone's already mentioned this, but i got sick of trying to catch up and reading ad nauseum!! 

has anyone thought that maybe the seller is just as naive as Automatrix, and really had no clue that anything was wrong with their car?  because a LOT of people can't tell their backside from their elbow!  and in this case caveat emptor indeed!! 

(by the way Automatrix, it wasn't meant as a dig, you agreed it was slightly naive to trust, just thinking maybe the seller was similar or worse with his knowledge when it comes to cars!)

Another thing, the first rule of 2nd hand car buying is NOT to meet in a car park/service station etc. to do the deal.  Autotrader/AA/RAC/Parker Guide etc.. all warn off this, as this is the easiest way to pretend to be the owner and offload a dodgy car etc..  or to hide the fact they're a trader. 

I always ask to see it at the home, and for it to have stayed there and NOT been started if possible!  I want to car to be cold! 

"1. The same Autotrader/AA/RAC/etc.  also warn  sellers to be wary of "dodgy buyers"  who might cheat a seller. They repeatedly put up stories of  how some sellers have been cheated (usually by gangsters posing as potential buyers). This in effect makes the seller treat buyers with utmost caution (or contempt in some cases!). "

True.  Because of the high value stakes involved (there are very few people for whom a transaction of thousands of pounds is trivial), both the buyer and seller need to be mindful of the risks and do their utmost to minimize them.  Either party can and should only be expected to look out for their own interests.

"To buy a car a HPI check, car service record and a proper V5 documentation is all that is needed. "

Insanity,  no other word for it.  Anyone that buys a car armed only with this information is wide open for exploitation.  Even if buying from a main dealer far more is required.  The buyer cannot abdicate responsibility for the outcome of a transaction regardless of what information is available.  If the information is insufficient the buyer either walks away or makes an effort to calculate the risk and offers accordingly (or gets stung).

"Buying cars is not some "rocket science" "

True, but there is more to it than you seem comfortable in acknowledging.

"I never said that the PO or the car was "dodgy" but I always said that anyone who wants to put up a car for sale should have the "decency" to atleast "put it up a ramp" and ensure it is in a reasonable condition. Perhaps, my expectations are higher than what the reality is in the private market but it wouldnt cost the seller much to make it decent enough to be in a reasonable condition."

It would have cost the seller just as much to fix the faults you have discovered as it has cost you.  They didn't need to pay for them because you didn't find them.  In effect, you overpaid for the car.

"It is only the few "dodgy" sellers who sell cars without a proper VAT receipt to "line their pockets" who  need to be tackled and weeded  out of the second hand car market!."

How, precisely, do you expect to identify the dodgy sellers, or buyers, from the ordinary decent ones?  The potential loss on a transaction on the part of either buyer or seller is not trivial and each party needs to take appropriate and reasonable steps to avoid being had.  In addition, avoiding issuing a VAT receipt is probably one of the least likely of the scams that they will be trying to pull.

Your faith in human nature is touching but ultimately has the potential to be easily misplaced.  Your experience has provided the opportunity to be a learning experience but I'm not sure you have recognized the lesson yet.

BTW, I do think your response to J7 VNK was a bit of an over-reaction.  He is a positive contributor to many threads on this forum and this thread does contain a lot of long and detailed messages that one would need a reasonable amount of time to wade through.  His observations are constructive and valid in the circumstances.

[QUOTE=Automatix] I have learnt one lesson -- just put that four wheels on a ramp and ask someone not "presumptious" but "knowledgeable" to tell me the general condition --- for a fee of course !.  I will save half the grief. The other half of the grief I will put it down to inevitable fixes  of any used car just as much as I have to fix my own car time and again to keep it running ![/QUOTE]

The lesson I had in mind was related to an far earlier part of the episode.

Automatix wrote: J7 VNK wrote: a LOT of people can't tell their backside from their elbow!  and in this case caveat emptor indeed!!  J7 VNK wrote: Front nearside wishbone was gone in mine!!  Didn't clunk, rattle knock or anything, but it wandered all over the road!!

And your point is Automatrix?  I was well aware it was gone!  and I don't get scared when a car wanders!  I knew what was required when i bought it, i bought the part, I replaced the part!  Job done! 

So again, what's your point?  I really didn't realise how much a person could dislike another without actually meeting them in person!!  but now I do!  certain the feeling's mutal!  I'll leave you to live your interesting life paying dealers and mechanics lots of money to change you headlight bulbs!

The whole point of my post on the wishbone was to offer advice as to a possible cause of your problem!!  It seems you don't want to solve anything!  You're a true whinger!! 

Automatix wrote:   2. I personally think I have a mind of my own and can make rational decisions without rushing to take pointless "advice" from gossip car  magazines. Automatix

Evidently not! 

Automatix wrote: 3.  There is a "semantic" difference between a "dodgy car" and a "car requiring one too many fixes".  An insurance write off (or even a category D), a front-back patched up car and the likes are all "dodgy" since they are not "road worthy". Automatix

Another example of your lack of knowledge and understanding!  how is a Cat D, or a Cat C NOT ROADWORTHY?  only in the condition it left the accident or other cause of catergorisation (flood, theft etc..)

A car can be Cat D simply because someone smashed the door locks off and the car wasn't worth much!!  Unroadworthy?  I don't think so!!  even a Cat D or C crash damage, once repaired IS roadworthy, and in many cases stronger than the original structure due to the laws regarding full seam welding!

Can you two not just get along? You both seem to have serious issues with each other, I can see why with the progressive baiting and retaliation in each of your posts. It makes the forum a LOT less enjoyable for all the other users, if you want to fight one another take it into a series of PM's or something. I don't want to read it. Rant over.

On the subject of your cat, I would tend to go for a stainless set for more money. This is because they will last indefinitely - the warranty is only a year longer because the component manufacturers have to cover themselves, they can't go issuing indefinite warranties in case you drive 50k miles a year or something! If you get the cats replaced now with stainless ones you probably won't need to touch them again for another ten years or so.

If you two keep on going the way you are currently, I sincerely hope the mods will take action. Both sound like spoilt children, and spoilt children need told off.

The thing is a good BMW OE exhaust will last ten years, so I have been reliably told. My car has just turned 18, and in the history there is only one receipt for exhaust replacement in 1998 at a cost of £600 for original parts. Yikes. At least I won't have to touch it for another three years I hope. As far as I can tell it seems to be a false economy to go for the cheaper aftermarket replacements as these will last two or maybe three years at best. I bought a brand new back box for the chevette for nine quid, it remains to be seen how long that lasts! Probably longer than the car does.... In your case it really is up to you which scale of economies you go for - high initial outlay with the prospect of perhaps ten years service, or lower cost at the risk of a shorter service life. I'd be tempted to spend more now if you intend to keep the car for a long time, see it as an investment.

I will concede that car magazines appear to be overemphasising the negative aspects of car buying, I have always found it to be a pleasant experience and I accept any risks that come with it as part and parcel of the whole enterprise. Like most things in life it is very much a learning experience, and I am now more confident in my abilities to sniff out a winner and to spot a lemon. So far it's worked! And I didn't listen to any of these so called experts - there is no substitute for experience, something you have learned the hard way my friend! Car ownership can be made to be enjoyable, as long as you accept the inevitable pitfalls that come with it. Cars are expensive, end of story!

Any catalytic converter is liable to damage that will shatter the matrix material and render it useless. Stainless ones can last a long time unless this happens.

Incidentally, in the time and effort put into this thread we could all have fixed our cars, rounded up a few bad egg car traders and generally put the World to rights for real.....

I'm off to fix my car then...

Brucey wrote: Incidentally, in the time and effort put into this thread we could all have fixed our cars, rounded up a few bad egg car traders and generally put the World to rights for real..... I'm off to fix my car then...

 got ya Brucey ! So are we all going to hear tomorrow your supercharged gleaming motor is back on the streets (with a warning for all the elderly to keep off the streets and your neighbours to seal off their front garden   )

Wish everyone  could fix cars at superspeeds !! Then we could all start with stacking metal bits on wheels, add a combustible couldron under the hood, put a round thingy on a stick, dust off the deck chairs from the attic and place it in front of the round thingy, drill a hole on any side of the metal piece to feed the couldron and generally spruce it up with odd bits and hey presto we wont need dealers/wheelers/stealers at all and the world will be a completely different place !

Such is life that the "real" world is rather complicated!

I am off to get some metal bits to start with.....

Doive wrote: I will concede that car magazines appear to be overemphasising the negative aspects of car buying, I have always found it to be a pleasant experience and I accept any risks that come with it as part and parcel of the whole enterprise. Like most things in life it is very much a learning experience, and I am now more confident in my abilities to sniff out a winner and to spot a lemon. So far it's worked! And I didn't listen to any of these so called experts - there is no substitute for experience, something you have learned the hard way my friend! Car ownership can be made to be enjoyable, as long as you accept the inevitable pitfalls that come with it. Cars are expensive, end of story!

Although it was by first venture into private buying I did find the car buying  a real pleasant experience as you say. I spent nearly a month and half looking at all kinds of models (some 3 series and mostly 5) both from private and trade (a different kind operated from homes but with proper VAT receipts and quite professionally too with the car upto date with all documentation!). This search introduced me to the myriad world of car sale techniques and I must admit I was rather pleased to encounter all this. I met some really decent people in private sale and it is imperative you treat them with respect and it will be reciprocated. All this "dodgy mentality" perpetuated by Autotrader/RAC/AA is simply OTT. No doubt you have to make sure you are getting your money's worth but in my opinion it can be done in a very civil manner by just following sensible protocols like requesting (not demanding) for verifying the car's documentation, persuading the owner to have a condition check done for the car (incidentally I came to know only now that BMW dealers could do one for a very small fee! ), and generally making an offer that is not too ridiculous --- one should bear in  mind that the seller is already "stung" because of the depreciation effects of cars. If both seller/buyer have done a bit of homework on the "market value" of the car then the above documentation and check should be adequate to make a deal in which both parties are happy; usually a seller has regrets letting go a much loved car and a buyer has no regrets taking off a much loved car at a depreciated price --- amazing contrast come to think of it!.

As I mentioned sometime earlier I had perhaps built up a "walking away fatigue" and hence got stung a bit on the one I eventually purchased although I still like the motor after the "costly" fixes!. Looking back I think I missed out on some real bargains -- a beautiful well maintained P reg 520 with 140k for only £2850 family owned, wasnt quick enough to make up my mind and someone snapped it cash payment ! Another P Reg 90k black/tan leather classy combination and in excellent condition. Again wasnt quick enough in making up my mind and snapped away !

There are wonderful bargains out there and from decent people. We dont need all this non-sense about mistrusting all and sundry, asking for "cold start"/ "hot start", or making unreasonable demands on viewing property rather than the car and so forth (most decent people wont mind showing their property for the really determined nosey buyers!). This idea of demanding to view address is a bit of a nonsense -- not everybody is just sitting at home polishing cars, they have jobs to do which are zillion miles away from home. Sometimes viewing "has" to happen in places other than residence.

Car buying can be conducted in a gentlemanly way with mutual respect! For that odd un-gentlemanly seller (or buyer) there is always an option --  just walk away not hastily but politely of course!

My main concerns are durability and hence maintainability of high mileage cars which is more to do with the car manufacturer, the fixer ("specialist") and so on  and that is why I opened up this thread !

regards,

Automatix