Having attended Gaydon today and seen all the different classes of vehicles entered for the Concours competition what are everyones views on the following

1) vehicles entered under 10 years old

2) vehicles entered which have had full resprays

I appreciate this toppic may have been discussed before but maybe it needs to be discussed regularly to determine the rules used by the judges as required by the particiapnts.

I must say it was dissapointing to see so few vehicles in the concours for a National event, are you not proud of your vehicles and want to show them ?

F30061 wrote: ....I must say it was dissapointing to see so few vehicles in the concours for a National event, are you not proud of your vehicles and want to show them ?

In the modern throwaway society we live in, with its constant demands on time, there are relatively few people who are prepared to devote the copious polish, time and energy that a concours entry requires.

i think original cars should only be entered in a concours class,anyone can spend money on a respray and making it perfect, but as it leaves the factory is best.

       tony

tonym5 wrote: i think original cars should only be entered in a concours class,anyone can spend money on a respray and making it perfect, but as it leaves the factory is best.        tony

i have too disagree with you! not every one can afford to.

but im very proud of my car and i enjoy polishing it, i also enjoy showing it to peps who share an intrest.

anyway after over hearing a few guys talking about how they will be cheating in the show n shine yesterday.. i will not be entering that again,

It is good to hear your early resonses and with differing views, I guess if you have a vehicle which is original you are more inclined to err on the side of originality, if you have spent out on a rebuild then you have to justify the argument for being allowed to enter a concours as an original  classic vehicle as opposed to a modified/reconditioned one.

It was dissapointing to hear about the entrants for the show and shine, I guess if there were enough of a particular group who "pooled" their votes for a particular vehicle then yes the outcome would be predictable and it is a shame that you will not enter the competition again, perhaps this should be brought to the attention of the chairman to place an article in the club magazine.

I attended gaydon for the first time and I was surprised to see the indistinct line between concours and show and shine,  I own a 1990 535 with 130,000 miles and it is full off small annoying scratches and a cple of small dents that it has accrued over its 15yr life.  I feel that the newer cars should be judged as a seperate class or have the older cars scores weighted in some way to make things fair.

It has taken me 6 months to polish and cut my car up to the standard its at the moment and if i wanted to win all these concours competitions then i would just go to a dealer and buy a new car to trailer to events.

I use my car every day and feel that the effort to keep the car even reasonable requires more thought and patience than jetwashing a newer car.

I am going to get my car resprayed this year to rid myself of the scratches but would still like to be considered as a classic entrant.

As a former member of the club (I've returned to the Dark-side and gone back to my first love, two-wheeled BMW's), I was pleased to be invited by a friend to attend the event. I enjoyed the day out and saw some great cars but I was stumped by the classifications for the Concours.

Having been fairly active in various single marque clubs over the years there does seem to be a huge variety of what constitutes a 'Concours' entrant. For a marque like BMW it is confused to some extent by the fact that cars are (thankfully) still being produced unlike many that have long since ceased and thereby removing the problem of new versus old. (They are just old or older!)

It seemed very odd to see a 2002 in the same category as a three year old M3.

There will always be a debate over originality but surely part of the reason for concours is these days, preservation? (Go back far enough and you will find that preservation and originality were never a consideration in Concours D'elegance. They were strictly judged on their elegance and modifications were allowed).

There is a place for new(ish) vehicles just as there is for ground-up restorations but there should be a premium for originality both because a genuine car with a certain patina of age is attractive in itself but more as an encouragement to "preserve the breed".

A quick question. If I win the lottery, re-join the club, buy a brand-new E65 750i in time for next year, have it PDI'd and trailered to the show from the nearest dealership to the event on the day, then entered it in the concours and not win the top prize, would I have entered in the spirit of the event?

I've been to various shows, including the RS show, and the concours catagories are split into different groups, series1 RS turbo, 3dr sierra cosworth, XR2, etc. Obviously the cars are all certain ages, and would have undoubtably had paintwork, etc. I always thought that concours allowed resprays, etc, and the judging was on how good or how close to original the car looked. Under the sierra's floorpan, there are various black painted patches, one where the VIN number is stamped, another where the towing eyes are, etc. The ones which win are the ones where these have been deleted. To me that is not concours. It isn't original.

I think a brand new car could be entered into a "show and shine" but not concours. I also don't think that a car which has a few dents and scratches but is very clean and tidy should win a concours, but could do well in a "show and shine" too, but under a "working class" catagory.

There are no end of solutions, I have restored the bodywork on my black SE, and have gone along way and spent alot of money to get the paintwork in "as new" condition. For this it should win a concours catagory, but won't because I had my side skirts done shiney and not matt finish. All trims, gaps and badges should all be fitted correctly, etc for a class win.

What would happen if two identical M3 CSL's turn up at a concours competition straight from the factory? Both win? I don't think so. New cars shouldn't be allowed.

Concours = In the same condition it left the factory.

Classic = An older car which has been cherished, restored, loved and looked after.

Thats just my view..........

Grahame_Vincent wrote: Concours = In the same condition it left the factory. Classic = An older car which has been cherished, restored, loved and looked after. Thats just my view..........

Everyone is entitled to thier view, but if the above is the case, then there are alot of cars winning concours which shouldn't be. Was there a classic class?

Grahame_Vincent wrote: Concours = In the same condition it left the factory.

Whole can of new worms........

Is that with ageing?

Would a "nut & bolt" restoration be acceptable? (It may be in the 'same condition' but it certainly isn't original).

Would genuine factory "after-market" options that weren't on the car when it left the factory detract?

Does an original feature that is now polished (when originally it wasn't) add or detract?

In my opinion where it's all gone wrong is in trying to achieve National Standards so that cars from one club can compete in national events with others.

It would be better to return to the original spirit of Concours D'elegance - judge entrants on the day on the basis of what in the judges opinion is the best and most elegant car (irrepsective of age, originality or condition, although these may affect the judges private opinion).

It is after-all a matter of opinion and opinions are subjective. It's ridiculous to try and set objective rules in something open to so much interpretation.

I like the idea of each vehicle being in a different class however from the turnout at Gaydon in respect of so few entrants spanning so many different variations then each one should have won first prize as there were no 2 vehicles in the same class other than the two rebuilt resprayed 3 series show vehicles from Scotland.

It is interesting to see a similar view held by all concerning the entry of a new vehicle into concours.

Will try to get the issue posted nationally to get a wider view.

F30061 wrote: ....... other than the two rebuilt resprayed 3 series show vehicles from Scotland.

 Are you saying that some people go out of their way to produce a "show car"?