llatsni wrote: If Richie is not on the committee and he wants to be, HE SHOULD BE!!! my 2c, Paul :)

What a Take Over Bid  Vote Riche in he gets my vote

No.1    Richie

I think it's definetely worth debating the issue, as there are plenty of potential candidates that would be more than interested in having some more responsibility and input in the running of the Irish region.

Like the first post states, the club has grown year on year and membership has more than doubled since i joined over a year ago. An AGM is obviously the place to debate such ideas but we are all aware that some members do not have access to the net or are not interested in using the forum or whatever. However, i doubt we would attract half the club members to attend an AGM anyway so the forum is the obvious place to start.

I'd imagine that commitee members should now be able to run administration for the Irish region, as opposed to members having to contact the UK for payment of fees for track days etc. Although i'm not exactly sure on the resources necessary to make it happen.

Personally, i would like to see some sort of event list for the coming year, provisionaly drawn up at the AGM. Even it was just 5 or 6 events to start with i.e. 2/3 track days, 1/2 car shows and other events such as the Wicklow run, economy run etc. organised according to members interests. If we had set dates for Mondello for example, then i doubt we would have issues regarding wheter we use the full circuit or not. It would also enable members to plan ahead with plenty of notice.

All IMO of course

kbannon wrote: As for an event list, isn't that part of the plan of the meeting?

Yeah, but i'm talking about setting them in stone sort of speak. Sure at the last meeting we discussed all sorts of events but i think we should post some sort of events list on the forum, not to reply too, but more of a guide to upcoming events in the new year.

As for members, i'm counting forum users as members which is a different thing altogether....my bad

I didn't even realise that there was a committee in place!  I know that I'm a relatively new member here, but from what I've seen, all of the organisation seems to be down to the same few individuals.  There are also very few events that people feel it's worth travelling for, and there can be some negativity when people try to do something different.  Also, it's always the same faces at the events - a lot of people don't give support.  I do realise that quite often that comes down to clashing schedules, or distances to be travelled.

Any, back to the point.  Who is on the current committee, and what roles do they play?  What would be the benefit of increasing the committee size?  I know that it has been cited above that it should be made larger due to the increase of membership numbers, but in reality, if you have a good structure in place, it should be capable of dealing with the bigger numbers without getting too strained.  Unless there is going to be a huge number of new events, then there should be no reason to enlarge the committee - higher numbers can lead to more arguments, which leads to dissent and eventually less getting done.

BTW; when is the AGM?  Also, how many members are there, and how are they spread across the country?

I think the issue we need to think about is the fact that there seems to be almost 2 seperate clubs (not in a poliical sense, but rather in a practical sense).

A good number of the most active members are on here frequently and participate in many of the events.  Of the members in Ireland though, we are just a small portion of the overall numbers.  Just look at the people that were at Mondello last week (and who turn up fairly frequently there) and yet don't get involved in other events - as an example.  The question that has to be asked is why and how we can get them to participate more (both in the events themselves and in voicing their opinions about the direction of the club - and hopefully getting more involved). 

It could be that the events aren't attractive to them, it could be that they would like to do different things, etc.  We can speculate here but in the end what we really need is a "Voice Of The Members" type of survey that allows all members to have their say, about events, how the club is organized, other benefits, etc.  A survey like this should have a small number of very open ended questions that gives people the scope to express their opinions.

Unless or until we get the input from ALL members, then solutions like expanding or changing the committee or other aspects of the organization or events may just have the effect of fixing things for a small group of more vocal members and alienating the larger group further.

We've seen how successful the events and activities can be this year, regardless of the size (Tullamore as an example of a large meet and the Econo run as an example of a small one), both in terms of the cars and the social aspects).  The question we need input to is how to expand the scope of the activities to include a wider group of members.

A key point is that the people who are active on this forum may not be a representitive sample of the membership.  To Ken's point, the current "success" of the club could be open to question.  Maybe 80+% of the membership of the region don't attend the events, meetings (car and AGM's), etc.  Even if we have had some relative successes this year, there is still a lot missing for most members, or else they would be more active.  The danger is in assuming that the vocal few represent the views of the majority of members.

In all of this I'd class myself as reasonably active, both at events and on the forum, but I'd not hold out my own views, or those who are active on the forum, as representitive.  Remember also, a reasonable number of active forum contributors may not be club members.

Richie, I don't know the answer, but its clear that the club activities as it stands (whether that be the formal or informal club) aren't compelling enough to involve themselves in.

I'd hazard a guess that some of those members are here because they have access to technical knowledge, resources and discounts, etc. that helps them enjoy their cars.  Look at the number of Irish cars that have featured in BMW Car mag and Total BMW in recent months.  The owners are nearly all club members to my knowledge and yet, despite their obvious interest in BMW's, they don't feel that the environment in the club is worth being actively involved in.  There may be some blame for that that can go back to the committee, but, as members, we all have to accept some responsibility.

Eamo, I disagree to some extent with the view that the committee must change before the views of the members can be gathered.  That might be putting the cart before the horse.  When the views of the wider membership have been gathered and analysed, THEN a structure (committee, etc.) that can represent and develop the wishes of the majority of members can be put in place.  This SHOULD include current committee members if they have an interest in continuing, for the sake of continuity and so that we can tap in to the experience and knowledge of these members.

There may be changes needed, but remember that the current committee is the one that has gotten the club to a point where many of us, as individuals, were interested to join.

A slight aside, but relevent nonetheless, was a comment from Killian was about the number of members that haven't renewed.  It would be worth gathering their feedback too to understand why, especially if its true that a significant number were northern.  The activities (with the exception of the trip north during the summer) are primarily focused on the south and midlands and this does exclude a lot of people.

I'd be interested to see the proportion of forum users to actual club members. If it wasn't for the trackday, I reckon a significant portion of people wouldn't join the club. And many join just for those 2 events. However, in the bigger picture of what is being discussed, that's neither here nor there.

In terms of increasing profile, I think the show & shine at Duffys was a brilliant piece of work in both drumming up internal interest within the club for a non-trackday event, and raising the clubs profile on a dealer and Joe-Public level. Perhaps a way of keeping growing the club profile would be to have a simple A5 flier with all new and 2ndhand cars sold by co-operative BMW dealers; this can profile the club, its benefits, the forum, activities etc..

As mentioned above, the turnouts for alot of events isn't great. We need to figure what works, what doesn't, and focus on maximising the events that show potential. What we need is more feedback and involvement from everyone to contribute and attend.

Movingto the commitee itself, from the IRL section contacts, it stands as:

To have gotten the club to where it is now, those involved should take a bow. But as Bertie would say "alot done, more to do"

Is there much happening in the N.I. area? Can we have more cross-border events? Are people interested in them? Should it be Jim and Allan, in their capacity of N.I. co-ordinators, following up on interest shown in a BMWclub BDD event in Kirkistown, and not Ludo?

Is Kevin still involved in a chairman capacity? Does he still want to be? I see Brendan you are now Irish Region Club editor - I assume you are still secretary though? (and if ya are, how come you don't wear a skirt at any events I've been at? ).

Eamon. No need to correct T.J.  He was referring to the previous Show and Shine/Concours at Joe Duffy's. The first Show and Shine at Motor Imports in 2002 was also a well attended event.

Thanks Eamon for continuing the good tradition established for Show and Shine/Concours type events. How are your plans going for 2006 will you have a proposed date at the end of year meeting?

Everyone has had various good points here, but the one that hits me the most is Kens comments about the lack of overlap between what the older/younger members want, and about what events actually require membership.

I'm relatively new to the whole club scene, having only joined in March and having not been in a club since I was a teenager!  This is also the first forum I've ever been active on.  What prompted me to become a member was the March Mondello meeting, and having met other members there, I kept coming back to the forum because of how welcome I was made feel.  To bhe honest, I don't really read the magazines because, with the exception of the last issue with articles by Ger and a few others, I haven't felt that it was aimed toward Irish members.

Somebody mentioned getting mailshots of events, but I haven't seen any come through the letterbox - my only source of information about whats going on has been the forum.  Obviously, not everyone uses the forum regularly, if at all.

Is there a list of both current and former members available, and could a mail shot be organised through the club to get ALL of their opinions so that we can see what caused people to both join and leave?

A survey would be a good idea. But to get any level of response it would to have stamped addressed return envelopes. Another thing to increase survey response is to have a prize.

I am trying to remember, did head office have a survey in the magazine a few years ago, or was that another magazine.

Maybe mailto:survey@bmw - survey@bmw ... or a survey form on the Ireland club home page could be set up so forum people could offer opinions in privacy, with a delegated person collating results.  Privacy would be important to get true feelings.

Limiting it to an e-mail survey (or responses) immediately disenfranchises a reasonable proportion of club members, who can't, or don't have internet/e-mail access. 

The effect of a survey must be to gather the views of the widest possible group of members.

I am happy with being part of the GB club.

The magazine does not have enough Irish info because not enough Irish members are writing articles. If I remember correctly Brendan is the contact for magazine articles. We need to get more running reports in, more personal experiences from events (remember Brendan's great article about his first track day in Mondello).

Being part of a larger organisation means there are fewer disputes about money, because more professional accounting has to be done. With smaller organisations there sadly is always the impression held by some members that others are skimming off the top.

BMW recognition is important as well being affilliated with BCE.

The people that went to Silverstone shared that experience as part of the same club. The 3 day BMW only August trip to the 'ring is something I feel that in the future Irish section members will be part of. That we could not achieve as an independant organisation.

The AGM where people take on specific roles I believe may be the best way to go. For this year people took on specific events or functions and that worked quite well. If new functions are to be added their purpose and targets need to be clearly defined for all to see.

kdevitt wrote: I'm far from the most nationalistic of people around (in fact most mates would call me a west brit ) but I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a Irish BMW car club, rather than us being a UK region.

I'm inclined to agree, I've always wondered why we're part of the GB club. I don't see why Ireland doesn't have a free standing club that could be affiliated to the UK club and the European club.

I also don't see what Irish members who aren't on the forum get for their €50 per year, (excluding those who just join on track days). An out of date magazine with the same ads repeated every so often?

As was said earlier in the thread the same discounts can be gotten from dealers / Otto / GSF without being in the club as in it.

In my view the forum essentially is the club and without mentioning names the people who are the Irish mods, the most frequent contributors and the organiser(s) of group buys should be the ones to be voted onto the committee of the club, if they so wish, as without them there would be no club. Any potential committee nominees who seek election so that they can be in a position of perceived power should not elected.

kdevitt wrote: but I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a Irish BMW car club, rather than us being a UK region.

One simple reason is economy of scale.  There aren't enough members here to support a club structure, even if all the work is voluntary.  Even if all the Irish members moved across it would be difficult to organize the little things that are taken for granted and it would be unfair to expect people to do all the work on a voluntary basis.  Having been on the committee of the Irish Jordan club those years ago (which was a breakaway from the official UK club) I know the workload is high and the thanks is little.  With a club organization in place its work that no one needs to do, and the effort can be spent in organizing actual events and activities.

For example, the insurance cover for individuals at Mondello that Killian mentioned.  It may or may not cost much but the time it would take a volunteer to organize it, get quotes, fill in forms, put the cover in place, pay for it, etc. is huge, assuming the cover can be had.  I know this from trying to organize Public Liability insurance for the management company in the estate where I live.

Lets all back up a little and remember the question we started out asking.  That was, do we need to change the way the Irish section is organized and run? 

The question was not about the whether to break away. 

Also, the whole point of a club, and its one that has been lost in the question about what you get for €50, is that its what people put in that makes a club successful, not what they take (or get) out. 

I personally think €50 is cheap for the entertainment and enjoyment I get from being involved.

                            easy lads

A point that has been alluded to as well is that the forum is an interest to a lot of people but that you don't have to be a member to partake.  True, but I have no problem in chipping in a small sum to keep it afloat, simply so that I can use it.  Others can make their own minds about piggy backing if they want, but I see it as a service that I use and want to continue and therefore am happy to contribute to that as another service provided by the club.

One last thing ("I promise"!), a point was made earlier about event dates appearing in the club mags after the events themselves.  There is a simple way to avoid that, set the dates early enough to make the correct deadlines for the publication of the previous edition!

I will be joining when i get home.

I 'm joining in order of importance because 1. Bdd (trackdays)  2. Forum (help and Knowledge)  3. Discounts (Topazman is cheaper than ebay for meguiars)

I would prefer to join a free standing Irish club but it would'nt put me off joining an affiliate.

For less than the price of a tank of go go juice i think i would get value for money. I must put in only a slight effort recoup this outlay over the year.

highbeem wrote:   I will be joining when i get home. I 'm joining in order of importance because 1. Bdd (trackdays)  2. Forum (help and Knowledge)  3. Discounts (Topazman is cheaper than ebay for meguiars) I would prefer to join a free standing Irish club but it would'nt put me off joining an affiliate. For less than the price of a tank of go go juice i think i would get value for money. I must put in only a slight effort recoup this outlay over the year.

Cheers for that Highbeem  

I only found out about the forum through Digweed.  I know a few BMW drivers I've mentioned the club to haven't known about it, but have looked in since.

As for hearing about the club outside of the club, did anyone hear the plugs on 2fm as we drove to Mondello?  Personally, I think that noone in the country did!

Eamo - sorry, I thought you meant snail mail, but the only email shot I've gotten was from you about Tullamore!

Ger - good point on the SAE's; would be the only way that a postal survey would work.

Brendan - what about getting the office to send out a mail survey; that way, they can cover their bums by not giving us any information, whilst at the same time gaining brownie points with Irish members as they'll be seen to do something on our behalf.

Also, RE upping our fees (and ours alone) for posting across the water - it costs me the same to send a letter (A4 included) to London, Glasgow or Dublin, and I'm fairly sure that it works the same way in reverse - after all, my tires cost the same being sent to me, Northern Ireland or Northern Scotland from England!

I don't think restricting the forum to club members is a good idea. The Alfa club GB is member-only, and ticks me off no end I can't get in.

In terms of branching away from BMWclub GB, I really don't see how it benefits us. They provide a useful service, any thing club related is handled quickly and efficiently (membership, paying for trackday, Silverstone etc).

Alot of good events people have had are individual-driven rather than club-driven (such as Frankfurt, NI trip etc). But essentially they are BMWclub members prposing & co-ordinating the trip. As Brendan said, this approach to events is new, is working, and if it ain't broke why try fix it? Unless Richie, Niall et al feel this work should be recognised by the club by creating a more formal role for them?

I agree with Niall that group buys should be restricted to club members (but will we lose the numbers to support a group buy then?). The technical help provided by BMW technicians requires your membership number which is fair enough. remember alot of people log on by chance looking for assistance for a problem they have. It's this support that has created the community we have now.

This is probably as TJ said is what I think is the only benifit and maybe recognition by BMW UK/IRL?

In terms of branching away from BMWclub GB, I really don't see how it benefits us. They provide a useful service, any thing club related is handled quickly and efficiently (membership, paying for trackday, Silverstone etc).

Ye hit it on the head Richie/Niall.. the real club buzz is on this forum!  BMWclub GB provide the help where required, remove a bit of hassle for things like Mondello, and give us recognition etc but it's fairly autonomous in what individuals want to do, when they want to do it, and how it is organised.

topazman wrote: Well maybe thats the problem our buzz is controlled by those across the water, its like things have never changed

This is all getting a bit "home rule"-ish for me! 

I agree with TJ, the club organization takes away some of the admin headaches and still leaves us free enough to arrange suitable activities.  As he said, if it ain't broke.....  I really can't see what a break away club will give us except the admin headache to those that volunteer to run it.

Focusing back on where we started, is the Irish section meeting the needs of the section members (not just those active on the forum)?  How will we find out?  This might be repeating a wild, mad idea, but how about we ask?

I don't have much experience with committees.  However, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they usually consist of Chairperson, Secretary, Treasurer, and PRO?

I feel that unless the people who are currently in these positions want to get out of them, then we should leave them be, on the grounds of "if it ain't broke, leave it alone". 

 I understand that club rules dictate that we're not allowed have a treasurer, but we should be able to have access to information such as what funding our region generates, and what funding is allocated to us.

PRO in this instance is more Killians role as webmaster, which I personally feel could not be done any better or with any more entuasiasm.

Secretary - I'm not sure what their duties would be in an online club, unless it's collation of details of activities.  Brendan - I don't mean this to undermine your input; I just don't know enough about the position.

Chairperson - presumably to let the majorities feelings be known to the central committee and fight our corner.  Personally, not a role I'd like to take on myself - sounds like a lot of grief, especially when nobody seems to be able to agree on anything!

If the committees workload requires extra help, so be it.  If not, leave well enough alone.  What we need here is input from the existing committee outlining their feelings.  After all, none of the rest of us know how much behind the scenes work takes place.

That's my 2 cents.

In this age of high tech communications, the "committee" does not formally meet as often as in olden times. So as such a formal committee structure is not strictly needed. What we do need is a figurehead/leader, it does not matter what they are called, be it chairman, Section co-ordinator etc.

This person would be empowered to ensure that the decisions and spirit of the section is upheld, with the assistance of various people e.g. event organisors, secretary, PRO and other positions as needed.

As a form of government this is nearer the American system rather than the European system, that is there are no coalitions in the USA. The president is the president he appoints the cabinet from the people he chooses not what has been elected.

Another 2 cents worth.

Eamo - sorry; I meant that if some of the people already on the committee were getting sick of it, then let them step down and someone else step up.

IMHO, a committee is there to oversee, not to take responsibility for organising every little thing.  As club members, we should organise events (such as your own Capital Cars event), with the committee giving us advice on what to do/change if we run into difficulties.

To Ritchie Thanks for your witty reply.

It may not be world politics, but what we are dicussing here is club politics and as your reply shows people can get just as emotional about it.

It shows how important the club is to each and everyone of us, that is one of the strenghts we have in this club and we need to build on it.

Easy

So how about a list of those who are attending the AGM on December the 4th, I'll start 

1. Topazman 

kbannon wrote: I guess I'll head down too so that would make me #7 (as Derg & Rodney can't count sequentially!)

I thought that was the whole point of counting.....

I'll be #8 so.

And that would make me number 9!

Wasn't number 7 the donkey in Grizzly Adams? 

kbannon wrote: I guess I'll head down too so that would make me #7 (as Derg & Rodney can't count sequentially!)

Ah c'mon lads, its Friday and its been a long week, can I not just be joint 4th and leave it at that?!!

Hi Dergside It's OK you can share with me

 4

Kin Mak wrote: #10 Count me in... So what are we doing?

Learning to count

13) Will do my best to get there guys!

Geoff

Ravenelli69 wrote: 13) Will do my best to get there guys! Geoff

Come on Geoff where have you been hiding, course you can make it you deserve at least one day of  

Yeah, i'll be there too. Dont care what number I am. As for as i'm concerned we are a separate club in all but name(sort of). It's the people and the social events and the forum etc that make the club. Whether we are semi-autonomous or have been given devolved responsibility for various tasks, that is besides the point. I feel that being affiliated to BMW CC GB has been no major draw back, and as Killian says we have the 3rd party insurance cover. ALso they organised the Silverstone event with Sabine and we were made feel very welcome. BMW GB has had no part in the success/failure of our events. I do think we need to look more that the events which we organise and their success/failure and how we can increase our active members etc, rather than whether we should split from BMW GB. I agree 100% that Mondello and show and shine events seem to be the only ones which are successful at present, so maybe we need to look at this, and consider a way forward at the end of year meet.

thats my two cent worth.  

topazman wrote: Ravenelli69 wrote: 13) Will do my best to get there guys! Geoff   Come on Geoff where have you been hiding, course you can make it you deserve at least one day of

5 years hiding in Wicklow Co. Council trying to get planning permission! - End line will hopefully be crossed on the 21st of December!

Date is pencilled in diary!

Geoff