I don't remember actually... it wasn't a great time tbh but I think it's not really comparable to the new cars they test as they really do get thrashed within an inch of their lives- there was melting clutches and overheated engines left, right and centre.  He treated my car with a little more sympathy and respect and didn't even realise I'd be getting some free tyres out of it until dinner that evening!

gents,

i must say im a little dissapointed with the times,

integrale;56.74/m3; 56.91

check the link to look at the shoot out table, according to this a mitsubishi czt and citreon c2 gt are quicker than an e30 m3???

http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?lnk=401&featureid=190&pageid=342&show=s8e10&section=Shootout - http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?lnk=401&featurei d=190&pageid=342&show=s8e10&section=Shootout

The sport Ka is not far behind - the horror

Excuse the ignorance!...what channel is 5th gear on pls?

For those who are interested...Autocar this week supposed to have some kind of article featuring E30 M3...out tomorow 13.12.05

Five

M3Booboo wrote: Excuse the ignorance!...what channel is 5th gear on pls?

Chanel 5 tonight at 8 o'clock

If the cars are that knackered after lapping as has been said then it's not really a good comparison of how fast they are is it. There's no point in having a car that will lap in x seconds if it needs a new clutch after doing it.

It tended to be the cars who weren't really suited to such work- the little Suzuki Swift needed bump starting in second towards the end of the 2nd day and the XJR isn't really suited to track time I guess.  The other clutch was the Mitsi EVO 6 but I suppose that was second hand.

Looking at that chart shows some interesting results- the Fiesta ST for example put in an absolute stormer!  I drove that very one though and it did seem quicker than the one I test drove from a dealer... hmmmm....

Well said.

Totally agree- although some of the cars it is below on th 5G list it would/should certainly best in like-for-like track situations. 

Beat the transit though.  Just.

I shall be watching, some of those times are odd, although I suspect much of it depends on wind, temps, etc. Anglesea can be extremely windy, and you can actually feel the car holding back on some parts of the track because of it.

Looking forward to it.  Getting me cocoa and slippers ready!

Hi,

I live in Holland but I would like to see this episode of 5th gear as well of course! so could someone post a link where you can download this episode, I know you have http://www.finalgear.com - www.finalgear.com but how long after the episode has been on TV it comes on finalgear.com? Does anyone know this?

Thanks in advance

Joep 

M3Booboo wrote: For those who are interested...Autocar this week supposed to have some kind of article featuring E30 M3...out tomorow 13.12.05

Yeap E30 M3 vs 130i.....!!!!!

just watched 5th gear

i must say i am a bit gutted

flat out and only just quicker than a street ka

no disrespect to you or your car aaron but i wish they used a 215 with lower mileage

just a slightly quicker time would have seen it sitting next to more respectable cars.

Aaron,

I'm sure you had the video set!!

I felt that they treated the M3 a bit poorly on FG. Who cares how fast it went round the track. I've swapped a Civic Type R for my M3 and it might not be as easy to drive quickly but it is certainly a lot more rewarding.

The point is I can't see them having too many "shootouts" between Citroen C2's & Sportka's etc 20 years after they were made.

Anyway that's my rant over and the car looked good Aaron!!

Aaron,  just finished watching the show, the car looked great. All the other cars used are provided by car manufacturers, so thrashing the sh1t out of them so not matter to the TV company, as it will not cost them anything to get a replacement.

Top Gear Mag was the same when the did the M Power,  Ultimate Car article in December 2003, with Steve Soper driving. 5 out the 6 quickest cars were all provided by BMW UK.

Craig

1990 M3 Sport Evo

2002 330d Sport Touring

hang on, lets not kid ourselves. we are talking about m3's here not your run of the mill super mini, of course times are important. the street ka is for girls and hairdressers with not a sport orientated part on it whereas the m3 is a track orientated car.

cant help thinking a car knocking out its full brake horse power quota should and would have done better than this.

"knicker dropping power" - I like that. Does anyone know which chip/airbox combination gives the most?

Seriously, I enjoyed the show, and actually though they were pretty reasonable to both the old cars.  Having seen the joke that is a "Top Gear" test, it was a pleasure to see Tiff actually driving the cars rather than showing off.  He said himself that surprising though the times were, they were from 20 year old cars, that both felt fresh and fun to drive.

I guess the point they were making was that car technology has moved on a lot.  A low mileage Sport Evo and an Integrale Evo2 would no doubt have been a fair bit quicker, but that wouldn't say what they wanted to say.  If you recall Clarkson boiling a DB5 dry as his way of showing that classics are no good, I think 5th Gear shows a lot more grown up treatment of the topic.

By the way, the M3 looked fantastic Aaron.

Just think of the following:

E30 M3 or Fiesta ST?

Monet or Tracy Emin?

911 2.7 RS or new Carrera 4?

Medoc or Jacob's Creek?

Miura or Murcielago?

Saturn V or Space Shuttle?

250GTO or Superamerica?

Progress ain't necessarily forward motion!

Well done Aaron, your car looked great, and looked much more modern than the Intergrale IMO.

I think it was a fair shoot out, the M3 power sliding everywhere, the Intergrale understeering everywhere. With the Lancias extra traction of 4wd and probably alot more torque than the M3 once on boost, it may not be suprising that the italian was slightly quicker.

Maybe thay should have had a 3dr Sierra cossie there too??? This would have been a better match for the M3 perhaps, especially in standard trim.

mmm-five wrote: I've been to Anglesey a lot of times and when we've been allowed to time we've seen e30 325's down to 54 seconds so I can't see an e30 M3 being slower than that. Even my barge managed a 55 second lap - albeit on sticky tyres.

it seems a 325 can manage it two seconds quicker!!??

BMG M3 wrote: ok, so we need a track day there after the winter to see what everyones M3 can do.Right ?

Where do I sign up???? 

I think though its good that these icons get tv coverage nearly 20 years after they were new I cant help feeling they tarnished the image a bit by timing them. I did a trackday at donington in mine a few weeks ago and embarassed a few newer cars. Its now in the back of my mind that every time I go to Mcdonalds all the rude boys in their tin boxes will think they can have me. And the girl next door has a fiesta ST, need to avoid her for a few days now too.

Dazzieboy wrote: Its now in the back of my mind that every time I go to Mcdonalds all the rude boys in their tin boxes will think they can have me. And the girl next door has a fiesta ST, need to avoid her for a few days now too.

Atleast you will have fun proving them wrong!

True!

I think my biggest frustration is that too many car "enthusiasts" take these times as gospel. Im sure we've all overheard people comparing the stats in the back of Evo magazine its almost like modern day top trumps. Im too many peoples minds a Citroen C2 will now always be quicker than an old M3 and no amount of convincing will change their minds

Jonners wrote: a well driven clio williams will give an e30 m3 a fright let alone some of the latest generation hatches

'Tis true - was almost a complete stalemate between myself and a Clio 182 at Bedford last Saturday; the '3 Just had a tiny, tiny advantage from about 100mph upwards. I'm sure with a decent driver it'd have pulled out a more respectable lead than I managed though.

The car just behind was not a StreetKa but a SportKa, obviously the car of choice for the 'ring...

FWIW my 'fun' car before my M3 was a 1991 Integrale Evo I.

On the road, the Integrale was much much faster than my (195bhp) M3. I suspect it had been tweaked like so many (est 260bhp), but the combination of compliant 4wd chassis, big turbo and reasonable weight meant it was very very quick on A and B roads. However compared to the M3 it was much less demanding to drive well and felt as idiot proof , but faster, than a Prodrive Impreza I tried. 

However, on track the Lancia would just understeer, even if you gave a big lift on turn-in, or turned in on the brakes. The big power meant corners came up quicker, and the brakes wilted after 5 minutes. I set fire to mine (the brakes, not the car...).

In addition. it felt it had the structural intergrity of a paper bag. The interior was a riot of creaks and rattles, and mone spent an awful lot of time with various specialists (imploding fuel tank anyone?). Web forums are full of stories of significant structural failures. The works rally cars were stitched together by massive roll cages, and were re-shelled after every event.

I know Integrale's have their fans, but the M3 was a much more satisfying ownership and driving proposition. For me, owning an Integrale was a box I ticked, but I'd have another M3 in a heartbeat.

SS7

I expect the BMs can take more mechanical abuse than other cars that tend to fall apart under the strain.

In the time I've been track driving, I've never treated my track car any differently to, for example, a press car or pool car. And the track car never fails despite the abuse (which is far greater than a road car will incurr).

Incidentally I drove an ST150 and christ did it feel rubbish. Slow and dull compared to our M3

if a lap time board is to be made, there is no point blasting one car around then taking the next car around at 90%

if there were worries about the age/reliablity of the cars it should have just been a road test.

the m3 image has been hurt by this report

Absolute crap comparisson!

Anyone heard Tiff say "220 BHP Integrale"???...well they only came with 200 as standard so we have a modified turbocharged car beating standard 18yr old M3 with 15" tyres and 170K miles...FAIR???

They should have had standard 8V Integrale and that would have been fair!

Aaron...u have a great car and should not be dissapointed in any way or manner about these silly results.

Anyone ever seen an Integrale with 170K???...probably not, because they fall apart and rot by that time!

...maybe we should all sell our prized possesions and go and buy a "Street Ka"???

enuf said!

It was running NCT-5's at the time and now Eagle F1's.  The brake discs and pads are stock as is the suspension.

Perhaps it would be a fine idea for a number of us to arrange an Anglesey track day in the new year- it would be interesting to see what kind of times the modified cars can post and provide a satisfactory conclusion to this matter.  And I would certainly be interested to see if I can beat Tiff's time- imagine the bragging rights!

Does anyone else have a bone-stock car we can use as a benchmark as it seems to be of the opinion of some that there is something lacking in my car's performance.

And another thing what about Tiff's comment that the M3 could be putting out only 160 bhp now. If that is true (any comments Aaron?) then that may be a partial explanation to the times.

BTW Aaron the car looked great and I'm wondering how much time could have been saved by Tiff without all the showboating. Frankly by the smile on his face he looked like he was enjoying himself to worry too much about lap times. 

I think Tiff was just using racing driver's excuses and talking a load of s**t.

He wasn't driving fast, just showing off.

Shame Plato wasn't there to drive them.

Well, I can't recall the exact figures (James might) but I think it was around the 180hp mark last time it was dynoed but it's had some more engine work since then so I'd expect it to be closer to stock.  One of the things I'm planning to do is get it dyno'ed in the near future.

Through the seat of the pants dyno it only seems to have improved under my ownership (2 1/2 years).

Like I said, I was slightly taken aback by Tiff's comments in the studio as they seemed contrary to what he'd said to me and the superlatives he'd been using in the track feature.

AaronM3 wrote: It was running NCT-5's at the time and now Eagle F1's.  The brake discs and pads are stock as is the suspension. Perhaps it would be a fine idea for a number of us to arrange an Anglesey track day in the new year- it would be interesting to see what kind of times the modified cars can post and provide a satisfactory conclusion to this matter.  And I would certainly be interested to see if I can beat Tiff's time- imagine the bragging rights! Does anyone else have a bone-stock car we can use as a benchmark as it seems to be of the opinion of some that there is something lacking in my car's performance.

There'd be so many levels of driver skill on the day (and some might say... balls) that nothing scientific could be gained from it.

It would be a good laugh though 

Is TBMW- Total BMW, Nick... ?

'cuse ignorance!

That good eh?! 

Cool. 

I have a standard car with exception of lowering springs. Does have totally new suspension with all original BMW parts except the springs.

This thread does need to be taken in context everyone here has a soft spot for the E30 but put in context it is a 20 year old car in its basic design and there has been huge progress over the last 20 years.

In all of these comparions ( i kept up with a this and that) the driver is the most important factor. We can hardly say Tiff Needle cant drive very well so why dispute his laptime . Im sure he is by far quicker than anyone that posts here. People have mentioned about Aarons car having done 170k but if my memory serves me correctly hasnt it had  an engine rebuild in the not too distant past.

I had an E46 M3 for a while and it would totally aniliate an E30 M3 if driven by drivers of comparable standard.

The e46 would easily out handle a standard E30 M3 as well. The difference is that the E30 is much easier to control and is more balanced on the limit but you will still be traveling much slower.

Chris.

Just go out and have fun with the car's we all Love, it doesn't matter !

Regards

Chris Miller wrote: IThe e46 would easily out handle a standard E30 M3 as well.

I'm sure it would, but how many people will lust after them and talk about their racing heritage and pedigree 15-20 years from now?

I'm almost certain the Street Ka won't be held in such high regard in the year 2021 (BTW I should point out that I'm part of the Electrical design team on these things..... Ask Rezaq)

Like Rezaq I suffered hideous amounts of abuse due to being beaten by the Lancia, but working here in Ford my misery was confounded with the beloved M3 only marginally faster than the Street Ka

I'm sure my car's ears are burning so I'll go and keep her company in the garage this evening

Not forgetting: Aaron, your car looked awesome in the hands of Tiff. Even if he was sliding around a bit, it was still much tidier than the Lancia.   I've got mine back now so perhaps see in you Billericay sometime?

trackM3 wrote: Just go out and have fun with the car's we all Love, it doesn't matter !

Here Here!!  Lets all go out to play!

This is the busiest I've ever seen this forum...

... hope it continues!

kevin wrote: E30 M3 Evo 1 wrote: trackM3 wrote: Just go out and have fun with the car's we all Love, it doesn't matter ! Here Here!!  Lets all go out to play! Well said...book up for Croft or take it to the Nordschleife or any other track and just enjoy what you have in it's natural habitat

Thats what i want, positivity ?= enjoyment 

HAPPY CRIMBO.

You shouldn't be bothered about people taking the piss. I'm sure I put up with it more often anyway running a bright yellow E36 track car, at least the E30 has some heritage.

I run my car for me and no-one else. It does everything I want and wouldn't swap it for anything else, I'm sure you guys are the same with your E30s.

And it was a bleeping SportKa not a StreetKa. StreetKas are for girls whereas the SportKas are for limp wristed men (I've had two)...

For those who are interested in proving the E30 M3 has lost nothing in 20 years. Ive just been speaking to my very good friend Chris Randall who is an excellent sports car driver. In fact he has just won the last round of Britcar at Brands Hatch. He said he would be very interested in a get together and would be happy to do the driving of different spec cars and set lap times subject to Angelsey's approved. He took part in the tuner Grand Prix a few months back at donington, that was run open pitlane qualifying format so it can be done. mailto:Nick@TBMW - Nick@TBMW please help make this happen

My Sport Evo is ready and waiting to fly the flag for BMW

Craig

1990 M3 Sport Evo

2002 330d Sport Touring

Dazzieboy wrote: my very good friend Chris Randall who is an excellent sports car driver. ... He said he would be very interested in a get together and would be happy to do the driving of different spec cars and set lap times subject to Angelsey's approved.

lol...

Used to race against Chris a few years ago in the BMWCC races (pre Kumho) when he had a E30 318i and I had a 2002Ti in the same class...
We were fairly evenly matched, then...

I bet he'd *love* to thrash a few cars around a circuit...

However, no disrespect, but so would most of the racing drivers I know (including myself)...just cos he won a race or two, recently, doesn't mean he is a better driver than plenty of people who only do track days...

PS: my M3 will be track-ready in the spring (with standard 195bhp motor, but uprated suspension and brakes)...I'll be happy to come along...but I'll be doing the driving, thanks!

Wow!

Now's probably not the time to own up to being Tiff in real life then?

Just kidding.

That got everyone warmed up a bit didn't it?  I think it's great to see how passsionately we all fight for our respective corners.  Reminds me of my blood-spitting anger over the Clarkson episode.

Just remember though, once all the piss-takers have run out of wisecrack remarks and general bull, they get to drive home their warmed over girls cars, and we get back into a piece of history.  It's our garages these cars get parked in every night, not theirs.  I say two fingers to the lot of them!

Owning a classic car is a bit like knowing a really good joke - you either get it, and it makes you smile every time you think of it, or you don't. 

Fushion Julz wrote: SportKas are for limp wristed men (I've had two)... what? sportkas or limp wristed men?!?

Ah, that would be telling...

SFH3L wrote: Owning a classic car is a bit like knowing a really good joke - you either get it, and it makes you smile every time you think of it, or you don't.

Excellent well said that man

cheers

Andy