Well, it's finally happened. The DIY car spannering magazine Car Mechanics has awarded the E34 5-series a coveted place in their Top Ten list of 'Cars to Keep Forever'.

High praise indeed from a magazine devoted to reducing ownership & maintenance costs and which publishes countless articles on the merits of Vauxhall Astra/Ford Escort ownership

They cited the E34's reliability, cheapness to buy on the used market now, variety of models and engine sizes, ease and simplicity of repair, and it's inherent overall mechanical strength.

The 540i was classed as 'Shatteringly Rapid', and the best all-rounder was the faithful old post '93 Vanos-equipped 24v 525i variant, especially the Touring models.

So there you have it-the E34 now has proper 'street cred' and owners aren't sneered at for being posh Beemer snobs. They can now look forward to a deferential nod of respect from the trade and can expect to be let out of side roads by drivers of white vans and old Fords & Vauxhalls

Now thats cool! Nice to see some recognition at last

Paul

We all knew this, and the award is long overdue.

But, I usually find that articles or awards like this will actually put the price of them up.

RedOctober wrote: So there you have it-the E34 now has proper 'street cred' and owners aren't sneered at for being posh Beemer snobs. They can now look forward to a deferential nod of respect from the trade and can expect to be let out of side roads by drivers of white vans and old Fords & Vauxhalls

steady now, don't let it go to your head

They didn't mention the E32, but as it's mostly a bigger version of the E34 then all the same factors apply, so it can justly lay claim to a portion of the award I think, especially as it's a bit cheaper to buy than the E34 and no less reliable

I know that I'd rather put my hand in a bacon slicer than get rid of my 2 E34's-my '93 540i has just passed it's MOT once again without fail for the third consecutive year, and I can't imagine life without it now. My 525i Touring fills so many roles that it's indespensible so I don't want to ever let that one go either-truly cars to keep forever so a toast to the E34 is due, I feel, or is that just an excuse to swipe another cold Murphy's from the fridge

Surely, the E34 is a smaller version of the E32?  Not vicky verky.

Fingerman......good price!  Is it a runner or does it need work?

Old Shape-you are technically correct in that the E34 is a shrunken E32, as the E32 came out before the E34 did.

I guess that means the E32 is the moral winner of the award, and the E34 poached it by being younger and slimmer on the Car Mechanics magazine award podium.

Devious people us 5-series owners are

chazzer wrote: RedOctober wrote: The 540i was classed as 'Shatteringly Rapid' I can vouch for that

You'll be dinning out on that quote for a while

RedOctober wrote: I guess that means the E32 is the moral winner of the award, and the E34 poached it by being younger and slimmer on the Car Mechanics magazine award podium.

I'd disagree on that point. The E32 is bigger, more complicated, more expensive to run and generally not as good a car.

Whilst I'm an E34 man myself, I don't think the differences between the E34 and E32 are that great in reality.

The E32 is not greatly heavier than the E34, itself no lightweight, and many of the complex electrical & electronic systems on the E32 can be found on high-end versions of the E34.

The only really questionable variant of the E32 is the V12 750i, with it's twin engine management systems and troublesome electronic throttles. I'd agree that they would all cause cause for concern if they gave trouble, but the 'cooking' 730i & 735i models aren't vastly different in drivetrain layout and electrical system complexity than the equivalent E34 models, whilst Nikasil problems on the V8-engined 7-series can also be levelled at the E34 V8's in equal measure.

The E32 is a bit heavier than the E34 and so will put more strain on suspension & steering components, but the E34 is not exactly a lightweight itself and no more immune from problems than the E32.

The E32's greater size and bulk will put some people off, as well as the fact that they usually came as fully-loaded high-end models and so even a basic E32 is likely to be much more complicated than a base 518i.

If you buy a fully-loaded high-end E34 you're just as likely to suffer problems from the complex systems as you are with the E32, and the big-engined E34's don't use vastly less fuel than the equivalent E32 models.

At the end of the day though it's horses for courses, and the fact is that the E34 appeals to a wider audience than the E32, because it's just that little bit more manageable for most people.

The E32's great if you want a really big old car for peanuts, and don't care about the sheer size of the car, but for most people the E34 is a more realistically attainable dream for those who want to try a BMW but don't want huge running costs or repair bills etc.

You could say that the E34 looks inherently 'right' in it's proportions, and,with such a huge choice of engine sizes available from the 518i to the M5 and all shades in between, won't frighten off someone wanting a big, comfy old car who just wants a sensible engine size.

It appeals to so many people because it offers so much variety in engine/trim level/body style, that can realistically satisfy everyone's choice, from base 518i economy car to scaring the hell out of your pet pooch in the 540i Touring to full-on track day M5 racer. Straight-4, classic BMW straight-6, or hod-rod V8, there's an engine to suit everyone

The smallest engine you could get on the E32 was the 3 litre, so the 7-series was already fighting with one hand tied behind it's back if it was trying to win over people upgrading from an old 1.6 litre family hatch etc who didn't want a big engine if they went for a BMW. They could probably justify a 518i, 520i or 525i, but not a 730i or 735i.

Nonetheless it's good to see the faithful, old E34 finally 'arrive' in style amongst the spanner-wielding fraternity, so I feel another toast is due in finest cold Murphy's style

RedOctober wrote: Well, it's finally happened. The DIY car spannering magazine Car Mechanics has awarded the E34 5-series a coveted place in their Top Ten list of 'Cars to Keep Forever'.

I agree, wished I'd kept mine, great car my first BMW and that was only 3 years ago!

Still being on the darkside in my E38 has its advantages 

My E34 540i automatic has been a paragon of cheapness and reliability over the last 3 years and 36,000 miles. It's just passed it's third consecutive MOT without fail and does 25mpg to work and 30mpg on a long motorway run.

I can't imagine life without it now as there's nothing else for the price that can match it's combination of raw speed, reliability, comfort, cheapness, and good economy of you don't rag it

You do have to find a good one though, or it could indeed become a bottomless money pit as 5KXO says, especially a Nikasil-blighted example.

A good E32 is still a great car though, and definately another one to keep forever, as I looked at a few E32's before finding my 540i, and you got a vast amount of car for very little cash with the E32.

I don't think there's actually a bad BMW, E32 or E34, merely bad examples that have been poorly maintained. Get a good one and your laughing, E32 or E34

Not heard of many V8 head gasket failures and it doesn't seem to be a problem compared with the early six-cylinder engines.

The 6-pot cylinder heads are long and can warp if the engine is overheated excessively, which can cause head gasket sealing problems.

The V8 cylinder heads are much shorter and more rigid, hence less likely to warp, although not impossible if you're really unlucky

I've had the heads off numerous sixes and it wasn't a pleasant job with the exhaust manifold canted over 30 degrees.

I think the V8 would be even more unpleasant as the underbonnet of the V8's is very cramped and, being a classic 90 degree V8, the exhaust manifolds are canted over 45 degrees each cylinder bank with hardly any access room or clearance between the inner wings and engine/manifolds.

When I had to slightly nip up the steering box adjuster on my 540i, I had to jack up the engine slightly to raise the manifolds up from the steering box as there was that little clearance to work.

Apart from Nikasil issues the V8's seem to be bombproof although it seems very much a 'fit and forget' engine with very little you can do to it and a hateful repair procedure if it goes wrong

The sixes are much more user-friendly to work on, although they are not altogether trouble-free, mechanically speaking.

From a mechanical point of view, the E32 is no more complex than the E34 as they broadly share the same drivetrain/suspension layouts as 5KXO rightly says.

What does cloud the issue is the electrical systems, as most E32's had high trim levels and equipment count, whereas on the E34 you could get the smaller-engined models with a very basic specification and very few electrical accessories, so they were naturally much less complex from an electrical point of view.

I agree totally-of all the BM's I've had, and I've owned 10 in total, my current 1993 E34 540iA has been the most trouble-free of them all and a model of reliability-it just doesn't seem to break...

Of course, tommorrow morning I just know that the engine will throw a rod, the gearbox will dump it's fluid, and the final drive will explode on pulling away, assuming I could actually steer the thing after the steering box seizes internally and shears it's mounting bolts

Then I'll be back on here extolling the virtues of Lada Estates and how they're so simple you can fix them with a penknife

I think that'll be a job for me soon - I've found my e34 to be a total pleasure to drive, only bills have been oil+filter changes, just gone straight through the MOT for the second year running, although the transmission oil is still a nice shade of red at the moment

Paul

True and proper recognition for the e34! And I can also vouch the 540 does go like stink! (the stink is the rubber off the tyres) and that is including wife, 2.4 kids and a 40kilo german shepherd!!

I will also say, mine has been very well looked after since birth and has cost me two rocker cover gaskets and just service items. As I do my own mechanics, it's cheap as chips!  I'll never get rid of her unless the scrap yard has it's big greasy paws on her but I won't give up without a fight!!

Here's to the e34

Mike

I'll drink to that-I service my E34 540i myself as well, and it costs peanuts to sevice and nothing has broken in the 3 years and 36,000 miles I've had it. People at work keep banging on about their Fords which they bought as 'they're cheap to fix'. I reply that that's just as well as you'll need lots of repairs to them 

Funnily enough the same bod had to spend over £200 on a new cat for his old shed of a Mondeo and another £300 for a new clutch for his newer Focus-I waltz in and announce that my 'ancient' 13-year old BMW 540i has just sailed through it's third MOT in a row without fail, and nothing has broken since I've had it and I've not had to do any big repairs.

13 years old it may be, but it still cuts the mustard in the power stakes, as it was very powerful for a 4 litre in it's day-while everyone else had around 250ish bhp way back then from their 4 litre V8's, BMW upstaged everyone with close on the full 300bhp and a modern 5-speed auto that didn't cripple performance the way some older 4-speed autos did.

I took mine out this morning to get petrol when it was early and the air was nice and cold at 13C. Was trundling along at 30mph in the 30 zone and came to the dual carriageway with the national speed limit sign.

Plonked it into sport and just floored it, with just me in the car, clean K & N filter, airbox front restrictor removed and it immediately kicked down to 1st gear at around 4000rpm and just took off savagely, lunging for the redline and chewing up the horizon.

Add in 30mpg on a long run and the fact that they're a pathetic few measly grand to buy now and you've got the performance bargain of the decade that won't leave you stranded by the roadside!

No matter what argument I try, I just cannot justify ever letting it go and I can't imagine life without it now-there's nothing I could replace it with for the price that would be such a good all-rounder.

I've got the saloon, but the 540i Touring is the dark horse and truly a car for all seasons-V8 Hot Rod street racer, relaxed cruiser, big family holdall, mobile dog-house, and lug all your wardrobe flat-packs back from B & Q at breakneck speed

I could go on forever-in fact I think I have so I'll shut up and drink a few cold Murphy's toasts to the E34 in general, and the E34 540i in particular

I'll drink to that red! How poetically put! nice! 

Mine has the M-tec suspension, body kit and 6 speed manual with the added bonus of a pipercross induction kit, minus the air restricter (soon to manufacture my own 'cold air' scoop), so for me it's a case of trundling along at 30, eyes lighting up at the national speed limit sign, dropping it into 3rd and flooring the loud pedal! Then she takes off like a thorough-bred horse thats just had it's ass stung by a wasp! WHOOSH, what a sound a V8 makes when un-hindered with a louder air filter! It's a sound like no other. Maybe just an exhaust now to complete the picture!

Going along with you red, I cannot bring myself to part with it, infact, it is a part of me. When I was hit by an un-insured driver (never traced, still hurts me and my wallet to the day! GRRR) I had to buy it back from the insurance co. because I wouldn't ever find an exact replacement, not with the gizmo's and trim along with the 6 box. so it has cost me money but not through any fault of the cars or mine so that doesn't count! All the more reason to keep her because she is now registered as having been written off before (shows up on the new printed MOT cert.) I can never get any decent money for it even though there is not a single trace of damage now, infact, the whole front had to be re-sprayed to blend in the front end so she looks better than before! If she was ever hit and put beyond repair through no fault of mine, I think I'd end up punching the offenders lights out as I wallowed in my pity for her! Call me sad, but many others out there will know where I'm coming from. I'm not insane, a little mad, insane no!

Mike

I think myself and many others will know exactly where you're coming from Mike and, anyway, if this is what being mad involves, then I say 'Bring it On'  in spades

I first read about the E34 540i in the first Autocar road test way back in 1992, and I knew then I wanted to have one when they dropped into my price bracket, which I knew would be many years.

Then, horror of horrors, I read about the Nikasil issue and that nearly shattered my dreams, as it wouldn't have been feasible to buy a sick one and try and repair the engine yourself, given the nature of the problem-BMW and worn cylinder bores just seemed totally wrong and at odds with the way of the universe somehow.

Anyway, after the Alusil salvation my faith was restored and I managed to source mine 3 years ago-a 2 owner 88k mile car with full main dealer history and a new engine fitted at the main dealer approx 6 months after the Alusil replacement blocks were introduced.

Mine was the basic 540i model, not the SE model, and had remarkably few toys-full soft leather interior but no air-con. However, I was more interested in the 'go' department and it never gets that hot up here in the rainy North-West of England anyway

Another advantage in my eyes of the meagre gadget count was the weight saving of not having either air-con apparatus to cart around or electric seats etc, so it's a little bit lighter than most 540i's, although not by a huge amount admittedly.

I discovered by accident that removing the airbox intake restricter pipe opened up the inlet diameter to the airbox and gave a more throaty induction bark with a K & N filter element in the standard airbox.

I retained the rear headlight shrouds and standard airbox so it only sucks in cold intake air and, automatic or not, it really does fly on cool days with one up and no more than half a tankful of fuel-on 1 particular cool dry windless winter night at a very late hour, I wound it out fully on a deserted stretch of 'Der Britishe Autobahn, Offizier' and hit the speed limiter at an indicated 154mph with the engine still pulling. It felt like there was another 10mph to come, as you could feel the engine power being softly throttled back at the limiter and the car stopped accelerating.

With 13 years, 125k on the clock now and a very meagre equipment count it's probably worth no more than £3k tops to a serious buyer or less than £2k to an Autotrader 'tyre kicker'.

Which is why I'll never sell it.

It's still capable of giving 'young blades' a bloody good fright when they see my big old 'Grandads' saloon car and then try it on-usually in Max Powered Hondas with baked bean tin exhausts etc. Not a few have learnt the hard way that 'Grandad still rocks Da House'

I can truly understand why you won't part with yours and have put all that effort into it-you really can justify it with this model of car.  The 540i was unique in it's day and there was very little to touch it.

Even now it's still damn fast, acceptably economical, and sounds so much nicer at the redline than the latest expensive TurboDiesels-you really do get masses of 'Bang for your Buck'

Part with it? Nah-I'd rather put my wedding tackle in a bacon slicer as that would bring notably less tears to my eyes

Cheers

Alex

Nice words there Alex, I'm watching several 540's that are appearing on ebay at the moment, I'm getting very tempted to plump for one, although I keep putting it off as the 530 is just so reliable, and I'm under strict orders to find the ball and chain another car first, although I may end up getting one anyway and ending up in the doghouse but I can't get her to pin down a car that she wants

Paul

Wise decisions there guys-there's much to be said with holding on to a reliable car, and 530i's are still very nice cars indeed.

I had a very long wait to find my ideal 540i, as you've got to be careful you don't saddle yourself with a sick Nikasil-afflicted example.

All other faults on an E34 540i can be repaired without too much pain-even the autobox-but a failed Nikasil engine will scrap the car as a new engine plus fitting will cost much more than the value of the car at current market levels, as they're all old now.

I may be guessing here, but I think cherished E34 540i's with good engines will be sold through specialist marque and owners club magazines for a good price, and sick Nikasil-engined ones will be flogged off on eBay as cheaply and as quickly as possible.

Of all the cars to avoid buying on eBay, I think an E34/E32 V8 model tops the charts, unless you REALLY know what you're doing and go and give the vehicle a THOROUGH road test from stone cold before bidding for it later.

Sorry to sound alarmist, but I'm an old-fashioned trudge-round-to-the-seller-and-give-it-a-thorough-inspection type of car buyer.

If the car's had a replacement Alusil block and is in good shape, then  the seller would be singing loudly about this if he knows his onions and realises it will get him a better price on the used market.

If not, then why not? The V8 E32/E34 is a specialist car for most people and you'd hope the seller had some idea of what he's talking about.

Having said that, there's always the possibility that there's the odd 'hidden gem' out there, and maybe even healthy Nikasil cars that somehow escaped engine damage and were run largely on low sulphur fuels.

Just a case of being 'streetwise' I guess 

Alex

I was the same iwth the 530, as I had bought it off ebay for £475, went to look at it, the seller was in the Navy and the rest is history - I think I had a real gem of a car here and certainly intend to keep it for a while yet...

Paul

fingerman wrote: and the lack of decent 540's appearing on EBay

There were a few out there when I was looking. Mind you it is easier to find a better cared E34 with a smaller engine since the 540 does seem popular with the go fast guys. The only downside to the 540 as far as I could see is that 99% of them have auto boxes which just aren't my thing. 

I think this should b renamed the 540 worship thread or somesuch

I can see no reason to ever sell my E34 M5 - not even for one of your 540's!

Yes Derek, but some of us can't afford an M5, I'd love to own one, but a 540i would be a very good second best car

Paul

If this appears to have become a 540i worship thread, then that just shows what a good car it is for the price, and how popular it is among BMW owners

Not everyone can afford an E34 M5, or find economical insurance for one if you live in urban centres.

My previous insurers wouldn't touch an M5 unless it was garaged, but was happy to insure a 540i parked on a driveway-I live in urban Merseyside, and 'here be scallies' etc!

To many people, a 540i is a bigger 520i and doesn't carry the same exclusivity as the M5, even though it's damn near as fast, especially in rare 6-speed manual form.

No, I doubt many people would trade down from an M5 to a 540i, but then conversely a 325i owner could realistically trade up to a 540i without too much pain, whereas an M5 is unreachable for a great many people.

The bog-standard 540i is a seriously fast car that can be bought very cheaply and not incur specialist running costs or conditions to be met for insurance purposes etc.

Sure, it's not an M5, but it gives 90% of the raw M5 performance and 70% of the handling prowess for 50% of the price, and can be had with inexpensive 15inch wheel/tyre combinations and with it's rangy gearing give an easy 30mpg on a run, as well as being easier to insure and a bit less attractive to car thieves.

I've owned 10 BM's in my time, from E30 318i's & 325i's, E28 & E34 535i's/525e's, E24 635CSi, but the E34 540i truly takes some beating for it's considerable all round abilities and painless running costs, and is my all-time favourite next to the black 635CSi I once owned.

That's why so many people on here rate then so highly

The M5 is sublime, but an unacheivable dream for many people who may not be in a financial position to buy, run & insure one.

The E34 is the true working man's car for everyone, and the 540i simply allows you a substantial bite at the M5 performance cherry without the associated costs.

There isn't what you'd call a 'bad' E34, merely varying degrees of greatness-I've owned 3 in my time with BM's, and the running costs are no worse than a 3-series, of which I've had 3 of those too.

The 540i's biggest attribute is it's crushing all-round ability for such a pathetically cheap price you can pick them up for now, and the fact that they're not that difficult to insure reasonably if you live in a town etc.

Purists may bemoan the auto versions or the softish suspension, but you're only paying peanuts for them so perfection isn't to be expected-if you want that, then open your wallet, stump up and look big, and get an M5 

Incidentally, there have been numerous M5 v 540i debates, with both sides passionately defending their corner with justifiable points and logical arguments.

At the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference and available budget.

I look upon it like this-we all own the best car don't we, or we'd have bought a different one!

Cheers

Alex

Carpetbagger wrote:  hey guys What about  the 525 a cracking car and more fuel efficient and less problems with heads . Regards Al

The E34 was the last of the over engineered cars IMO.

I can see this debate is going to run and run... Blimey, what have I started here

Yes, the 525i was recognised as the best all-rounder, and it is a cracking car, no question about that-I have a '95 525i 24v Vanos Touring and it's a great car that leaves you with a warm glow inside.

Much easier to find than either the 540i or M5, no Nikasil worries and easy to insure, cheap to fuel as well.

Probably the least troublesome of the E34 variants to own, apart from the 'hilarious' plastic impellered water pump debacle on the 24v engines that could overheat the engine and fry the expensive multivalve head if you didn't spot it failing in time.

Other than that the 525i's are generally bomb-proof with no Nikasil worries, and deeply satisfing to own.

In my experience, whilst more economical than the big-engined models, the difference isn't that great as the E34 is a heavy beast so round town even the smaller engined models drink a bit in stop-start traffic.

Not sure about 'less problems with heads' though, as I've not had head problems with either my 525i 24v or my 540i, and neither engine design was ever really troublesome in that department, unlike the older 12v sixes that could knock out camshafts and crack heads etc.

Al-I agree that the 540i doesn't have quite the same ring about it as the M5, but then the M5 owners bank balance will have an altogether hollower 'ring' to it than the 540i owners bank balance

Touche!!!

Alex

RedOctober wrote: If this appears to have become a 540i worship thread, then that just shows what a good car it is for the price, and how popular it is among BMW owners

Or perhaps lots of 540 owners just like going on about how great they think their cars are

It's easy to get carried away with how good your own car is, especially when you get so much pleasure out of it. But perhaps the reason why you can't imagine ever wanting to sell it is because you haven't driven many other cars yet. I'm not saying it isn't a great car but there are lots of very good cars out there.

I love my car but I know that once I can afford something better I will trade up. Until i can afford a Porsche 997 i will always think like that

The E34 540 is a good car and for the cash there is little else to touch them in terms of performance. However I think the 525 is a better all rounder since it doesn't suffer from Nikasil woes, gets better mpg and generally has lower running costs.

RedOctober wrote: I look upon it like this-we all own the best car don't we, or we'd have bought a different one!

No. I don't think my car is the best, but is the best I could afford. Two very different things. Personally I think a 997 Turbo or perhaps an E39 M5 is the best but there both out of my price range

In the real world though, all our car choices are determined by budgetary constraints.

One particular car magazine would conduct group tests, and give a verdict based on the cars own absolute ability and not take the price into consideration.

Then they'd publish a verdict based on the vehicle's price, which gave an entirely different result, using the same cars in the group test.

I could drive countless different cars which are all better than the old E34 540i, but it'd be a pointless exercise if I couldn't then afford to buy one of these superior cars.

The point I was trying to make is that you don't have to pay much money for a good 540i, which means that even someone on a tight budget could consider one of these reliable old rocketships and not end up in the financial 'sherbert dip' unless they bought a ropey old failed Nikasil example.

Yes, it'll be high mileage with softish suspension, but you can't have everything unless you have an unrestricted budget.

There are countless better cars than an old E34 540i, but at what cost?

As a rough generalisation, people will try and get the best car they can on the budget they can comfortably afford.

The problem with aspirational dreams and hard reality is that there's ususally a yawning financial gap separating them, so you have to find the best compromise between vehicle ability and price/running costs.

Is a £60,000 M5 really 20 times better than a £3000 540i, to put it in it's rawest and most simplistic terms? Is it 20 times more powerful? Does it corner 20 times more sharply? How exactly do you quantify this anyway?

Of all the cars I've ever owned or driven-and there've been plenty, including many non-BMW's, the E34 540i stands out as unique for the money, and that's the reason I rate it so highly amongst E34's, because they're so cheap to buy if you can get a decent one without Nikasil woes, as that's their only real Achillies Heel.

I own an E34 525i as well, so can directly compare them in terms of running costs/fuel consumption etc. Believe it or not, the 540i doesn't use much more fuel than the 525i if you drive them in a similar manner.

That's the proviso, though, as the 540i encourages you to drive fast, so you think it's using vastly more fuel when in fact it's the different driving style that plays the bigger part.

Driven in exactly the same manner, my 540i will use about 20% more fuel than a similarly driven 525i. If I then cane the 540i, it'll drink up to 40% more fuel than a caned 525i, as I've measured the respective fuel consumptions back-to-back after applying the correct calibration factors to their trip computers and also using the brim method over known distances.

They both have the same wheel & tyre size, so no difference there. 8 litres of engine oil versus 5, 8 spark plugs versus 6, not a vast difference there either.

Apart from the V8 Nikasil woes neither respective engine is prone to major failure, and both share similar drivetrains and suspension layouts, excepting the different damper rates etc.

The V8 exhaust system will be notably more expensive though, but that's really only the main downside.

The E34 was the second of the 'modern' shape BM's, behind the E32, so still looks modern today, which is why it's stood the test of time so well.

It was also very well engineered, with no noticeable cost cutting anywhere-they're very solidly built cars, as their extra weight over the outgoing E28's will testify.

My original motivation for starting this thread was to acknowledge the fact that, of all the BM's you can buy used, it was the E34 that was rated by the general motoring trade because it offered so much for so little cash, and price was a major driving force behing my own decision to choose the E34.

Yes, I'd love a new £80,000 M6 in black, as it would be massively better then my old tubs, but I just ain't got that kind of money, so I bought the 'best available for the limited budget'

Which is why Car Mechanics awarder the E34 the honours

And also why it's my 'best car'-it provides huge fun for not much cash.

Alex

Peter Fenwick wrote: fingerman wrote: and the lack of decent 540's appearing on EBay There were a few out there when I was looking. Mind you it is easier to find a better cared E34 with a smaller engine since the 540 does seem popular with the go fast guys. The only downside to the 540 as far as I could see is that 99% of them have auto boxes which just aren't my thing.

Make mine a six speed! thats why I bit the hand off up to the neck when I saw mine. I can fully recommend the 6 box anyday and anyone who gets to share my enthusiasm for it is very lucky indeed!

Mike

Derek M5 wrote: I think this should b renamed the 540 worship thread or somesuch I can see no reason to ever sell my E34 M5 - not even for one of your 540's!

I would love an M5 but need an estate and I've only ever seen 2, both very expensive and both LHD! apart from that, it'd be my next car, though I am looking to get an LSD from a 5 and improve my performance with a few tweaks to match or improve on the M5. I can't join 'em, I'll beat 'em!! lol

Mike

Feck me you 540 lot are a sensitive bunch!

The point I was trying perhaps none too subtley put across is that it's the E34 - in all of it's guises that won the award because they are utterly superb cars!

I'm not sure (E30 owners look away now) BMW have made anything as strong or enduring before or after it.

The sad fact of the matter is, your avarage spanner monkey won't be able to maintain an E34 M5 due to it's added complexities so in fact the award probably goes to the E34 not including the M5?

I'll get me coat!

RedOctober wrote: In the real world though, all our car choices are determined by budgetary constraints. One particular car magazine would conduct group tests, and give a verdict based on the cars own absolute ability and not take the price into consideration. Then they'd publish a verdict based on the vehicle's price, which gave an entirely different result, using the same cars in the group test. I could drive countless different cars which are all better than the old E34 540i, but it'd be a pointless exercise if I couldn't then afford to buy one of these superior cars. The point I was trying to make is that you don't have to pay much money for a good 540i, which means that even someone on a tight budget could consider one of these reliable old rocketships and not end up in the financial 'sherbert dip' unless they bought a ropey old failed Nikasil example. Yes, it'll be high mileage with softish suspension, but you can't have everything unless you have an unrestricted budget. There are countless better cars than an old E34 540i, but at what cost?

Budgetary constraints affect almost everyone when choosing a car, but you have to consider the running costs when budgeting for a car. For example. I paid around £6k for a 96N 328 with 86k on the clock about 3 years ago. For that kind of outlay the options of other similar performance cars were limited to say the least. However had I chosen a less expensive to run and slower car I could have spent a lot more. For example if, I had gone for a 1.8 focus I could have spent closer to £10k on the car and still ended up with the same monthly outlay. The focus would also have been worth more after 3 years, although this may change over a longer time period. So when considering what you can buy for your money you need to consider the running costs aswell. So if you have £3k to spend on a 540 you could probably spend £6k on something not quite as flash and still be in a similar financial position.

Why do you think 540's are so cheap? Because the high running costs put people off. And the fact that if something big does go wrong you could end up either scrapping the car or paying out big money to get it fixed.

I do however agree that 540s are good cars and I can appreciate why they are popular but as i said £3k to buy one is equivalent to having £6k to spend on something cheaper to run. Oh and for £3k you can also buy a Nissan 300zx TT which is faster than a 540, but when you consider running costs...  

Oh and one final point, no one on a tight budget should buy a 540. If money is tight the last thing anyone needs is a car that is going to get 20mpg, requires £100+ tyres and requires proper servicing to keep it running sweet. This is exactly why there are so many knackered 540s out there because people buy them thinking they will be cheap and end up not being able to pay for the proper maintenance/repairs.

Well, I personally wouldn't spend 10K on a 1.8 Focus 

Whilst the Focus may have been worth more after 3 years, it has further to fall than a £6k BMW 328i, which has pretty much bottomed out of the depreciation curve and lost most of it's value early on before you bought it-that's the great thing about savage depreciation.

I bought my '93 K 540iA with 88k on the clock almost exactly 3 years ago to the day for £4500, with 2 previous owners, full history, and a warranted new Alusil engine fitted at the main dealers at 45k.

I get rather more than 20mpg from the car-25mpg to be precise on my 40 mile round trip commute to work, and 30mpg on a long run. Neither of these figures are pie-in-the-sky overestimations either, but accurate measurements using the brim method and accurate mileage info from maps and motorway markers.

I have bog-standard 15 inch alloys, and new tyres cost £70 and last 2 years. The car just doesn't break down either, and servicing is peanuts-I change my own oil and filters/plugs etc.

I drive fast but economically, not applying power if I have to scrub it off again rapidly-a technique that minimises brake usage and means I haven't had to change the pads or discs since I bought the car 3 years and 36,000 miles ago.

It's been the cheapest fast car I've ever run and, with the warranted Alusil replacement engine and the current new MOT, it'd still fetch around £2k in a private sale, so depreciation has been minimal too.

None of this is speculation either-they've been my observations over 3 years of 540i ownership.

You can keep your 10K 1.8 Focus

Buying a 3k car that costs more to run per month, or buying a 6k car that costs less to run per month is six of one, half a dozen of the other if you added up the total respective motoring costs over identical periods of ownership.

The extra 3K that you borrow to buy the 6K car will cost you more per month in finance charges, nicely negating the lower monthly running costs of the 6k car.

I could have spent my £4500 on a 3-year old quality small car, but I deliberately chose not to as I would have been bored senseless with it.

I wanted some excitement for my cash so I gambled on the E34 540i, and it's been the best motoring decision I've ever made, period.

That's why, like many other have found out themselves on here, I'm fiercely loyal to it, as my ownership experience has been nothing but pleasure at low cost with big thrills and no scary bills

Finally, I should add that I'm a big fan of the 24v sixes in the E34 models-it really is a sweet little engine and very eager to rev, and my own 525i 24v Touring is a superb all-rounder, very solidly built as only E34's are, and, as someone else said on here, definately one of the 'over-engineered' BMW model ranges.

Whichever model you choose you can't go wrong!

The 525i 24v Vanos models are the best overall all-rounders, and the 540i with a healthy engine is one of the great performance bargains of the decade.

The small six is a very sweet engine in the large E34 bodyshell, and very refined and a joy to rev. It is more sensible and economical for most people, but by no means is it an economy car due to the heavy E34 bodyshell.

You'd need a 10k 1.8 Focus to get an economy car, except that spending 10k to save a few hundred pounds a year on fuel isn't what I'd call 'economy'

The whole E34 range is so cheap to buy now that you can your pick of which model is for you, as there isn't really a 'wrong un'. Even the 518i has it's virtues if you understand it's role properly.

it's just that some variants are more 'right' than others

Nothing like a good lively debate though...

Alex

Good god you write long posts!

Almost as long as mine...

If you get 25mpg out of your 540 then your driving it nice and gently. I bet that under urban driving conditions it gets sub 20mpg. After all BMW quoted less than 24mpg combined for the 540 so if your getting more then you must be taking it steady.

I understand why you chose a 540 over a cheaper to run car but I was simply saying you need to factor in running costs to the buying equation and not just look at purchase price.

My £6k 328 was worth £2.5k about 30 months later. A 10k focus would have been worth at least twice that. Big engined cars, even BMWs don't seam to hold their value as well  in these times of high fuel prices. I reckon it would have bottomed out at around £1k in the end so in about 6 or so years the focus may well have been worth less.

Yes the extra cost of the finance will negate the savings in running costs, but my point was that when you factor in running costs you could buy a more expensive, cheaper to run car. At then end of the day a 10k, 1 year old 1.8 focus would have cost a lot less than my 328 over the time I owned it. Even if it did go wrong it would have been covered under warranty for the first two years as well. Your point about your 540 being cheap to run is fine except that a car like a focus is a damn site more DIY mechanic friendly and a lot cheaper to self service. For instance it has a sump half the size of a 540, half as many spark plugs etc. I bet for the cost of servicing the 540 yourself you could get a focus serviced at a local garage.

£70 for tyres? what make do you use? Again I got Toyo Proxes for my wifes Focus (so I know what i'm talking about) and they cost £60 each. If I was to go for budget tyres they would be around £35.

However don't get me wrong, I would buy the BMW anyday. I do accept however that it is an emotional choice as opposed to a sensible choice. I accepted that it was going to cost more to run so reduced my buying budget accordingly. I also took the rist that if it did go wrong i was going to have to pay out a lot to get it fixed.

In the first year of owining my 328 I spent about £2000 replacing discs and pads, front and rear dampers, rear springs and various other suspension components as well as an inspection2 service. Add to this the cost of tyres, £440 for 4 bridgestones, the fuel consumption which was about 27mpg average and then the insurance which was around £500. I'm hoping my 530 isn't quite as expensive

Your 540 may not have cost you a lot to run but I bet for every owner like you there is another who has spent a small fortune keeping their car on the road. And yes it's easy to say buy a good one, but unless your a trained mechanic it not always easy to spit a good one and even then if something like the catalytic converter or the ECU goes pop it's going to be an expensive fix. 

As I said I bought a BMW because I wanted one but I did it with the knowledge that it could work out expensive.

BTW have you ever driven a Ford focus?

If you haven't I suggest you do. Despite the lowley badge and the common as muck image, they are supprisingly fun to drive as long as you go for the Zetec model with sportier seats and stiffer suspension. Not a BMW by any stretch but still a good car all the same and on a tight twisting B road it would keep up with my 530 and your 540 no problem.

I'd like to add that Ford Focuses (Focii?), in common with all recent Fords are a victim of oversupply because of their popularity with fleet buyers and in this case the buying public so secondhand prices are driven down hard, good news for the buyer, not so good for the seller

Buy a Focus if you want a good all-rounder, surprisingly willing and able, my mother likes hers (a 99T 1.8 LX with 60k bought from a Ford main dealer a few months ago for less than £3k) but don't buy one if you want to try and sell it at a profit or want to stand out - they're just too common on the roads (bit like the 3-series really )

i'm surprised about your comments regarding the torque steer (unless it was a Focus RS), never found any real evidence of it in the focii i've driven

i had a loan of a brand new fiesta "style" the other day - what a horrible little car,  my mk2 1.1 ghia had a softer steering wheel and a better overall ambience

now where did i put my rose tinted glasses? 

spokey wrote: Peter Fenwick wrote: on a tight twisting B road it would keep up with my 530 and your 540 no problem. Are you quite sure about that? I took a Fiesta ST to a humility lesson in my 25-year-old 323i Baur the other day. And you can ask anybody who's seen the Baur ... the handling is "interesting". Also, when I had a Focus as a hire car, although it wasn't bad, I found the torque steer horrendous and very distracting when really pressing on.

Absolutely sure.

The handling is superb and the turn is is the best on any car I have ever driven. On a twisting road where the speed comes down to how much you can carry through the bends rather than outright BHP it would keep up with most things.

WRT your 323 showing up a Fiesta ST, I suspect that has more to do with driver abillity that anything else  

Oh and Torque steer?! a 1.8 focus doesn't have enough power to start with. I have certainly never experienced any.

As for driving crap cars, I had a Matiz 1.0 Se as a hire car on holiday recently. We were short of cash so had to go for the cheapest they had. When the aircon was running 5th gear was utterly pointless as you would have to change down as soon as you got to the slightest of inclines. A horrible, horrible car. It's only good feature was how easy it was to park

spokey wrote: Peter Fenwick wrote: The handling is superb and the turn is is the best on any car I have ever driven. On a twisting road where the speed comes down to how much you can carry through the bends rather than outright BHP it would keep up with most things. If you say so. I must have been driving something else.

Maybe it was the new model, my wifes is an X reg. It's also the zetec so has stiffer suspension and it has decent tyres on which make a difference. The LX isn't half as good IMO. The engine is crap though.

No, I've not driven a Focus, but I've read enough about them to know the motoring journalists really rate their handling, and my boss has one and agrees, so I wouldn't disagree with your comments on that aspect.

What I said was that if I had £10k to buy a car I wouldn't spend it on a Focus or any small hatchback for love nor money-I'd buy a big old bruiser that had depreciated savagely, and had a big, charismatic multi-cylinder engine. They're the type of cars I love to buy.

I like the E34 as it's big and roomy for the driver-I'm tall with long legs and used to get aches after long drives in E30's, something which just doesn't happen with E34's. I don't fit well in small hatchbacks either, so they're no good for me from a size point of view as well.

My tyre size is 225/60 15, and I run on BF Goodrich at around £70 a throw, and they do an okay job. I'm sure I could spend rather more on better ones but to take full advantage of them I'd need to replace all the dampers and suspension bushes as well.

The only 'unexpected' repair to the car was 1 wheel bearing in the first year after I bought it, which was around £120 for a garage to replace.

I change my own oil-two 5 litre cans of Castrol GTX High Mileage 15W/40 costs around £35, and £6 for an oil filter. 8 spark plugs is somewhere around the £25 mark the last time they were done, but I'll have to check that to be certain. The brakes work fine and I haven't had to touch them since I bought the car, and nothing's broken on the suspension either.

Apart from spark plugs and oil, you never need to touch the engine. There's no cambelt to change as it has timing chains, and you don't need to adjust the valve clearances as it has hydraulic lifters.

It's a 'fit and forget' engine. True, if anything big breaks, it'd most probably scrap the car as it's not worth much now. But it doesn't owe me anything and has given me 3 glorious years and 36,000 miles of cheap, trouble-free motoring. If it died tommorrow I could forgive it

I drive the car efficiently, rather than gently, and avoid choked urban routes if I can. I live in the centre of a town so only need to walk on foot to the shops.

I'm sure that round a twisting B road a 10k Focus with new, sharp suspension would keep up with my baggy old £2k 540i on the initial turn-in. Once settled into the bend though, the 540i grips fine.

However, on exiting the corner, unless you have the Focus ST, the sheer power of the 540i would put clean air between it and a 'cooking' Focus. Nearly 300bhp in a 1.7 ton car versus around 120ish bhp in a 1.2 ton Focus 1.8 would see to that. I don't have the exact power/weight figures of a cooking Focus to hand but you're welcome to enlighten me.

I know I wouldn't get away from an ST though, either round a bend or exiting a bend at full throttle.

I would, however, have a glorious V8 bark and many thousands of pounds left in the bank

I've always like big-engined big cars-it's just a personal choice. Sensible small hatchbacks just don't float my boat-period.

The big cars always depreciate more than the small hatches-that's why they make such huge bargains because no-one wants them, perceiving them to be expensive gas-guzzlers that always break down which, while not without a small element of truth, is in general a misguided gross over-simplification to say the least.

Ok, round town they're not much good, although a very comfy place to be in a traffic jam, but I hate driving around town in any car and would rather walk or get the train

The 540i is best suited to fast, sweeping 'A' roads-up in the Scottish Highlands it's in it's element and very quick, but throw it round the Cat and Fiddle and it's rather less happy admittedly.

I don't drive it like a nun, and it regularly sees full throttle-I've just practiced and pefected a driving technique that maximises speed with good economy and doesn't slow my journey times at all. I just drive fast where I can and then go with the traffic flow when the roads are full, and don't apply power if I know I'm going to have to hit the brakes again and scrub it all off, wasting fuel. I try to maintain the inertia of the vehicle, which is the only way to get any economy on a heavy car.

Also, by overriding the autobox manually and locking it into second gear, it can fly round bends a damn site faster than when left in 'Drive', as you get engine braking for the corners and no jumping around the gears or unpredictability. Second is good for over 70mph and is a great gear for 'B' road thrashing. Plant the throttle coming out of a corner in second when the engines already at 3500rpm and right in it's powerband and it'll thrust you out of the bend at a very fast rate of knots-just you try keeping up then in a 1.8 Focus

Oops, another long post-passionate debate, this

Peter Fenwick wrote: [QUOTE=RedOctober]   Oh and one final point, no one on a tight budget should buy a 540. If money is tight the last thing anyone needs is a car that is going to get 20mpg, requires £100+ tyres and requires proper servicing to keep it running sweet. This is exactly why there are so many knackered 540s out there because people buy them thinking they will be cheap and end up not being able to pay for the proper maintenance/repairs.

I have to disagree sligtly. When I bought my 540, I was not on a tight budget, but I am now. However, I've had the car for 2 years and it has cost me rocker cover gaskets (about £20 for the pair) and service items which I fitted myself. I work in a garage and usually have use of ramps as well as the technicians help when I need it. My car also does better mpg than you stated. I went from reading to Eastbourne on a busy Friday night via a jam packed M25 where I sat for 35 minutes in stop-start traffic and my obc still showed I got 27mpg with all that and country lanes in mind.

The running cost of a V8 can be drastically reduced if you are a fairly competent amature mechanic and you have the odd person who doesn't mind sharing their knowlege with you. Mine costs me £30-£40 a week in fuel, including my wife using it for business (lots of country lanes) and It's sailed through all 3 MOT's as I maintain it regularly and keep it running smooth all the time. As the saying goes, a stitch in time, saves nine!

Mike

P.S. oh yeah, I can get a set of four tyres for my car, fitted and balanced for £200!!  it's not what you know........................

540i V8-your ownership experience/running costs mirror my own. Looks like those of us who actually own and run the 540i know the true ownership costs, and those who don't will speculate. I have no reason to mis-represent true ownership costs to others as I'd only be lying to myself ultimately.

I've owned 10 BM's in total, including my current two E34's, ranging from small, economical E30 318i's through 535i's, and the E34 540i stands out as a bargain amongst big, powerful cars-they're so solid, unburstable, and so understressed in everyday motoring that you'd need to drive like a nutter to break one

If it was as expensive to run as some think it is, then I would have got rid of it years ago. The fact that it's so cheap to run and so easy to service for such a big, fast car means that it'll only ever be the big scrapyard in the sky that parts it from me-hope that day never arrives

Ok, i'm sure there are ways to reduce the cost of ownership but that's not the point. Compared to a 1.6 family hatch a 540 is going to be very expensive to run. If you can service a 540 for beer money yourself you can service a 1.6 astra for peanuts. Tyres are the same, so you can get 4 tyres for £200, I used to get 4 tyres for a Honda Civic for £140. Also what make of tyres are you talking about? and just because you know someone doesn't mean everyone does. If you knew a BMW mechanic who would service your car for free it still doesn't make a 540 a cheap car to run, it just makes you lucky!

I still maintain that if you are on a tight budget and only have £3k to spend on a car then you would be mad to buy a 540. 

My 530 only manages 25mpg on my daily commute which is about 10 miles of single carridge way A roads with roundabouts every mile or so. Traffic is normally heavy but nearly always moving freely. As I don't know the reading to eastbourne route i can't really comment. You did mention country roads though which in my experience are normally quite an economical. The best MPG my 328 ever achived was on a trip to the lake district. Also check your OBC mpg by measuruing mpg the old fashioned way. In my experience they aren't always very accurate.

I've heard all the arguments about how cheap it is to run a big BMW, mainly because I've made them all before myself. At the end of the day though a Big engined BMW will not get great mpg, and will cost more the run that a typical 5 door family hatch. So if money is tight you would be better of getting the family hatch.

RedOctober wrote: 540i V8-your ownership experience/running costs mirror my own. Looks like those of us who actually own and run the 540i know the true ownership costs, and those who don't will speculate. I have no reason to mis-represent true ownership costs to others as I'd only be lying to myself ultimately.

I'm not saying you are mis-representing the costs of ownership. I have however been on this forum for long enough to know that although some people, like yourself, manage to run their big BMs on a small budget, quite a few don't. Its the same with the Nikasil issue. Some people have been running Nikasil blocks for years without problems, however a lot a people have fallen foul of it and their BMW dream has turned into a nightmare. Although your car has so far worked out cheap to run you always have to remember that there is always the potential for it to become very expensive. You are taking a risk at the end of the day. You have decided that the enjoyment of ownership is worth the risk that if something big goes wrong the car will be scrap or stupidly expensive. Also, even if your car gets 25mpg, compare to someone who gets 35-40mpg you will be spending an extra £600+ a year on petrol (based on 10,000 miles). This is ok if you can afford that, but if money is tight then it's a different matter.

If money is tight then most people wouldn't even consider a BMW, neither would they be on this forum, which is generally aimed at enthusiast owners or people who need advice on their BMW's

For many people on these forums BMW ownership is about more than just running costs. If I really wanted to slash my motoring budget I'd buy a high-mileage 1989 VW Golf 1.3CL for £300 and insure it 3rd party only.

If people were on a tight budget I'd imagine the last place they'd be is on an enthusiast BMW forum looking for a big old 5 or 7 series.

As for running costs in general, once you've paid for the basics, you do actually have some choice as to how expensive your ownership costs will be.

I made damn sure I avoided metric wheels on my 540i for starters, and made sure the vehicle had had a replacement Alusil engine-they were my personal minimum requirements.

Why did I specify this? Because, like many on here, I'm a BMW enthusiast, neither a pauper nor filthy rich-just seeking value for money.

If I was on a tight budget, I wouldn't even be on a BMW forum, or any other prestige car forum for that matter-I'd be scanning the local rag for £100 Ford escorts.

Also, I doubt very much that someone in their right mind would consider a BMW 540i if they were on a tight budget-and they certainly wouldn't need either you or I to tell them that.

On the subject of sudden expensive repair bills-why should a big powerful car be more prone to breakdown than a small car, or any less reliable?

In this country, the speed at which you can drive your vehicle is limited by the speed of the car in front of you, prevailing traffic conditions, and speed cameras etc.

So it's highly unlikely that a powerful car will have spent much time at the very outside edge of it's performance envelope if owned by a reasonable person, so it will have spent a greater proportion of it's running time greatly understressed, unlike a smaller car.

Yes, there'll always be the lunatic owners who'll rag their cars without consideration for their own safety, the safety of other road users, and the vehicle itself, but with a bit of care when buying the car you can spot the 'horrors' and 'basket cases' by research and common sense.

You are correct that a car which does 35-40mpg will require less fuel than one which does 25mpg, in the same vein that a car which does 55-60mpg will cost even less to run than the 35-40mpg car.

So where do you draw the line? It all depends on your personal circumstances.

Concerning the accuracy of OBC mpg readings, in my experience these can vary notably, and my BM's have been up to 10% inaccurate either way.

For example, a while back I went on a long trip to Scotland in my 540i. I brimmed the 17.6 gallon tank and did 485 miles before the red low fuel light came on, with just under 2 gallons remaining. I managed to squeeze in 16 gallons of fuel to brim the tank again, giving just over 30mpg.

The trip computer was indicating 33mpg at this point, which I knew was wrong. After some web digging, I found a way to unlock the OBC and manually put in a 'correction factor' so the OBC now gives the same mpg readings as the 'brim' method.

The point I am making about the 540i is that it's not as ludicrously expensive to run as may be imagined. I've run cheap cars-I've had £400 E28 525e's and an E30 318i with the M40 engine, so I can make an easy comparison with the respective running costs, and the 540i stacks up very well in my experience.

Which is why I rate it so highly.

If you're buying a 540i, you're most probably an enthusiast anyway, so you're more than likely aware of the Nikasil issue which, incidentally, also affected E36 328i's, E39 528i's & 728i's made between 1995-1998.

I doubt very much that people on a budget who normally buy cheap-to-run cars are suddenly going to romp home with a dodgy BMW 540i.

But in the same vein if you get a decent one you don't have that much to fear, and they're not bank-breakingly expensive to run. No, they're not 'bargain basement' motors, but if you already run a 320 or a 325i for example, like I did, the upgrade to a 540i pretty much keeps the status quo financially speaking.

As for my car having the potential to become very expensive to run, that will be amply compensated for by the fact it wasn't that expensive to buy in the first place, and hasn't yet broken in a big way, not that there's any reason why it should suddenly do so.

At the end of the day, why should I worry about something that may or may not happen in the future? If we all lived our lives worrying about the 'potential' consequences, real or imagined, of the decisions we make in life, then we'd never progress, never do anything, and be stuck in limbo.

My comments on this topic are based entirely on my own ownership experiences of owning a decent example of a 540i. If somebody decides to buy a basket case and doesn't bother researching them beforehand then that's their problem, not mine.

The basic car buying rules apply to all cars, be it economical small car or big-engined large car.

Use your common sense when buying and you most likely won't come unstuck.

Alex

You're welcome, Fingerman-glad it's of some use 

I've had 3 E34's and really rate them-they're very tough if a little heavy, but then that weight gives them their strength.

Previously I've owned 3 E28's and 3 E30's, and a mean looking black 635CSi with black leather interior and knackered air-con, which was hilarious to get into after being parked all day in the sun at work

E34's still look modern and are great used buys, and it was gratifying to find a non-BMW biased magazine also thought so too-hence this post.

To the E34 then, in whatever bodyshape, engine size or trim level

Blimey red, I'm speechless (for once!) I couldn't have put it any better and ditto under every one of your words. I bought my 540 as an upgrade from my 530 ise saloon because I needed and estate for the dog, wife & 2 kids plus I didn't want to downgrade. I also wanted a manual. Het presto, I must've been the luckiesy bugger on the planet because my wife was scanning through e-bay and found a reasonably mint 540 with every single reciept of every service and repair ever done, including the nikasil replacement which was varified by a BMW engineer. With a six speed manual box, I couldn't bear to let it go so I offered my car as part ex which knocked £1500 off the price (I bought it for £1750 2 years before and it only ever cost me a suspension arm and brake pipe) and went to test drive it 1 day before the auction closed.

I was knocked off my feet and if I had of walked away, I'd have regretted it for the rest of my life. I paid the man there and then and swapped keys. I have never looked back. My car is so unique, I'd find whatever it cost to keep it on the road (within reason) because I love it so much. I have driven lots of Mercedes cars (as part of my job, not choice!!) some lovely Toyota Camry's, carina's, vauxhalls, fords, VW's (my brothers fairly new V5) a 320 ise (brothers old car), a 525e (I miss her) and my last one, the 530ise. None of them come close to my 540 and I can still carry the whole family, kitchen sink and all while having fun, though I can open her up more when they are not in the car!

All in all, it's never cost me any more than any of my brevious beemers, who also never cost me anything really. The only car I ever owned apart from a beemer was a vauxhall Cavalier which I loved until the head gasket went, had that done, then the head went. The damn thing cost me over £1000 in a year. None of my beemers have ever cost me anywhere near that much spread across 3 beemers and about 7 years. I can never see me buying another marque apart from the marvel of engineering that originates from the Bavarion Motor Werks.

THE END

Mike

Well said, 540i V8-you sum up the passion in the buying decision admirably, and the joy of subsequent ownership-that's what it's all about.

Nice one guys-now I've run out of words

Alex

Red october, I agree with most of what you say. After all you are an enthusiast, like me, so you make the choice to spend a little more running an older car rather than going for a cheaper to run newer one. The only points I would pick up on are that people on a tight budget won't buy a car like a 540. I knew a guy who bought an E34 525 because it was £1500. He had convinced himself that because it was a BMW it would never break down so he could afford to run it. He was wrong. First the ECU went pop then the auto box gave up.

Secondly I'm not saying that a big engined BMW is more likely to have a major failure than any other car, in fact if looked after the mechanicals should last for a long time. However all cars, as they get older, are prone to failures. The trouble with a big BMW is if it does fail it could be very expensive. Electrical components with circuit boards have a finite life so can and do fail. The same can be said for catalytic converters, engine sensors etc. So while you may be ok it is possible that at some point during ownership you could be faced with a big bill. This could happen with any older car but in a 540 is is likely to be more expensive.

Finally, we all worry about what may or may not happen in the future to some extent. I trust you have contents insurance for your house? At then end of the day whether you worry about it or not depends on how much of a problem it would be if the car did die and required a lot of cash to fix and how likely it is to happen. I have had an ECU die on a Honda and a catalytic converter on a Nissan. Fortunately I was able to source an ECU second hand and a main dealer fitted if for me. The CAT was only £200 from quick fit. Both cars were well maintained and in very good condition. Would BMW fit a second hand ECU for you? In fact can you even use a secopnd hand ECU in a BMW? and how much would the CATs on a 540 cost to replace.

All this wouldn't stop me buying a 540, I was going to get an E39 540 but I found a decent manual 530 first. But I would urge anyone to consider the cost of running a BMW before buying one, since all cars no matter what make/model suffer from component failure as they get older and with a BMW parts can be expensive and cheaper pattern parts can be a flase economy.

I bet you can think of somehting else to say now  

Points taken, although I strongly suspect that someone on a tight budget would themselves realise that a 540i was not the best car to have, without us needing to tell them

I will confess that I have an unfair advantage over many people as I work in the electronics repair industry down to component level, and can handle most of the electronics on the older BM's, including ECU's.

I once had an ECU die on my very first BMW-an E30 325i. The AA towed me home and I removed the ECU and opened it up. I found a couple of fractured solder joints on the output transistors that drive the fuel injectors, so 15 minutes with a soldering iron and all was well again with no cost

A great many BMW faults can be attributed to electrical systems going intermittent or failing. I diagnosed a failed Lambda sensor on my 525i Touring using an oscilloscope and pin-outs of the ECU, and fitted an aftermarket one for £20 as I only do a lowish mileage in it.

Yes, you do need to have a bit of nous about you to run a big BM on a low budget, but with care it's not impossible-I suspect this is why they appeal to enthusiasts, who are quite happy to get their hands dirty, so to speak.

I bought mine on what you'd call a 'comfortable' budget-I'd set a limit of £5k tops, an chose an older, more 'interesting' car rather than a mainstream younger one.

There was an element of risk in the decision, but I weighed everything up based on my previous BMW experience and making the following assumptions:-

1)   The M60 V8 engine's only real achillies heel is the Nikasil issue-other than that they are generally a trouble-free unit so unlikely to cause any other big bills if you get a good one.

2)   Final drive units seem to be mostly bomb proof on BM's, so this was unlikely to fail either.

3)   Steering boxes do wear, but can have a reasonable amount of the free play adjusted out, and re-conditioned boxes aren't prohibitively expensive as they were fitted to all models from 518i to M5, so wouldn't be that hard to source at a reasonable price.

4)   Catalytic converters were an unknown quantity, but if you follow the basic simple rules to avoid contaminating the cats with unburnt fuel, oil etc, then they only other way they fail is mechanically if they suffer a sharp impact such as driving over rutted surfaces, so I drive very carefully , if at all, on uneven ground. I keep the cats clean as my 40 mile round trip to work is mostly motorway/A-road to keep the speed up and the cats above 'light-off' temperature.

5)   Finally the big one-the autobox. This is the biggest unknown quantity on a 540i, and is a gamble, especially as DIY fluid changes are not possible on it's 'sealed for life' box-a backward step in my humble opinion.

However, as I'd planned to keep the car for many years, and you're unlikely to ever have to replace an autobox more than once in it's lifetime, then I could cope with one big autobox failure without making the whole exercise unfeasible financially.

A gamble yes, but a lucky one so far 

I often ponder over what I'll replace it with when it does eventually bite the dust, and it'll almost certainly be with an E39 5-series.

I quite fancy an E39 540i Touring, although I'm also very tempted by the six-cylinder 530i E39, as this engine seems to be one of BMW's gems in all the road tests I've ever read-powerful for a 3 litre and capable of giving excellent economy, and also having the rack-and-pinion steering instead of the V8's steering box.

I have a colleague at work who is the complete opposite of me when it comes to cars-he's always bought Fords because, in his words, they're 'cheap to fix'

This was just as well as his 2 litre Mondeo lunched it's cat (£200), and then shortly after his wife's1.6 Focus needed a new clutch (£300).

In contrast my 2 E34's both sailed through their MOT's after yet another breakdown-free year of motoring. The 540i has now passed 3 consecutive MOT's since I've owned it, and it's been quite simply the best BM I've ever owned.

I'll put up with 1 big failure (probably autobox) if that ever happens, but any more than that and I'll just cut my losses and get rid before it turns into a money pit, as by then it'll be worth so little on the used market that it'd be pointless fixing it-although I will shed real tears when that day does eventually arrive

Surely this must now be the last word on this topic

Cheers everyone for reading and contributing to a very lively debate

Alex

RedOctober wrote: Surely this must now be the last word on this topic?

So we're all agreed, for the E34 the only one to have is the M5......

Derek M5 wrote: RedOctober wrote: Surely this must now be the last word on this topic? So we're all agreed, for the E34 the only one to have is the M5......

No, 518 touring I think you'll find

Bloody hell RedOctober, are you going for the longest post in history record?

Have you thought about going into business repairing ECUs. I reckon there must be loads of money to be made, especially with cars where second hand ones aren't an option.

I've just read this thread through and my my some great contributions to the debate. The only thing is that I use to have colour in my hair but know its gone grey it taken so long.

PS top posting guys

grahame34m5 wrote: PS top posting guys

And he forgot to add, M5 is top choice.....

Not half as grey as my hair went writing all this stuff, and waiting for the replies to some of my admittedly 'challenging' comments

518i Touring? M5? 540i? Nope, we're all wrong here

Sorry guys-in this case I think we should abide by the independent 'Neutral' verdict, and let the original nominators of the E34 award, Car Mechanics magazine, have the last work here.

So 525i 24v Vanos it is then!

Just like my very own Touring then-don't you just love happy coincidences

Cheers everyone

Omigawd-here we go again

Well I can deal with 2 litre turbodiesel jobbies on the motorway quite well in my 540i

What mpg does your 530i do on the motorway then? By the way don't go by the OBC reading as they're not 100% accurate-the one on my 540i was over-reading by nearly 10% before I calibrated it using the brim method.

I love the sound of my 540i V8, but I also like the smooth 'zing' of the 525i six as it approaches the redline.

I own both the sexy V8 and the sensible 525i 24v Vanos, but I'm still going to agree with Car Mechanics verdict of the 525i, as they're more numerous on the used market and the unwary won't be caught out by possible Nikasil problems.

My own 525i isn't that much more economical than my 540i, but in the real world it has to just edge the V8 models into second for the kind of buyers Car Mechanics magazine is aimed at-people upgrading from mid-range Fords and Vauxhalls etc.

Of course WE would choose the V8's, as we're enthusiasts, but Car Mechanics verdict had to include cold, hard real-world running costs and probable repair bills etc.

Even though to us in the know the 525i's may only hold a small cost advantage over good V8's, it's still technically an advantage so ever-so-slightly pips the V8's to the post.

Now I know someone's going to disagree with that, as you can't please all of the people all of the time. However, the 525i will please most of the people most of the time and on that note I'm going to bed now

Alex

this is shaping up to be another candidate for "the neverending thread".... 

RedOctober wrote: Well I can deal with 2 litre turbodiesel jobbies on the motorway quite well in my 540i

Go with the M5 and they'll need to be running rocket fuel to wrry you

RedOctober wrote: What mpg does your 530i do

I love the sound of my 5.38 Straight Six, especially when it's over 4000 rpm, but I'm not so keen on the smooth 'zing' of the pump at the petrol station

RedOctober wrote: Of course WE would choose the V8's, as we're enthusiasts,

No, no, no, you'd choose the M5 if you weren't bringing common sense into it.

I've run both of my M5's as daily drivers and they're fine, but most Car Mechanics tend to steer clear of them so you end up having to go to a specialist and paying that little bit more for the peace of mind of a well looked after car.

RedOctober wrote: Now I know someone's going to disagree with that,

Did someone call?

RedOctober wrote: However, the 525i will please most of the people most of the time

What about the 525td?

RedOctober wrote: and on that note I'm going to bed now

Hoi, get up, we ain't done wi you yet....

In recognition of the quality thoughtful repsonses put forward by Alex in the face of the usual dross from me, I'm now firmly a member of the 525i camp.... though I did know of a rather special 520i when I lived in Dublin....... 

Derek M5 wrote: What about the 525td?

Surely you mean the 525tds. The td is woefully slow and about as popular as the 518

The only thing you need to know about the 525td is that it couldn't out run a slug

It had a feeble 115bhp which is nothing for such a big car. The 525 tds was much better with a credible 143bhp

RedOctober wrote: What mpg does your 530i do on the motorway then? By the way don't go by the OBC reading as they're not 100% accurate-the one on my 540i was over-reading by nearly 10% before I calibrated it using the brim method.

btw - I wouldn't touch a diesel e34 with a barge pole! - would much rather have a 518 - Taxi !

Derek M5 - Your funny

Fingerman-the brim method for measuring fuel consumption fairly accurately consists of filling the fuel tank quickly until the pump clicks off, then trickling in fuel until you can see the level rise in the filler neck.

Just make sure you avoid sharp driving manouevres for the first few miles otherwise you'll slosh fuel out the filler neck and down the overflow.

Next you either go for a very long single drive, or a weeks worth of representative normal motoring until the tank is at a low level-preferable less than quarter full, but not right on empty!

Then you just re-fill the fuel tank again to the brim, note the exact amount of fuel you put in, and then note the mileage you have covered on the odometer.

Then you simply divide the distance covered (in miles), by the fuel consumed (in gallons), and you get your mpg figure.

The only other error you may get is odometer error, but these are usually not too bad in that respect, and you can check it from maps  and known distance markers on long journeys.

The E34 has an 80 litre tank, or 17.6 gallons in old money

From your quoted figures, 440 miles on a 17.6 gallon tank equates to 25mpg if you run the tank to almost empty before refilling, which is risky.

If we assume a safety measure of re-fuelling when the red light comes on, at 8 litres remaining (1.76 gallons-say we assume 1.6 gallons to make the maths easier), then that would mean you have covered 440 miles on 16 gallons, which equates to 27.5mpg.

490 miles would equate to around 30.6mpg, so your OBC reading of 33.6 mpg is around 10% optimistic, which is what my 540i worked out at funnily enough.

I once got 485 miles out of my 540i before the red light came on. On a recent Scottish trip I got 520 miles out of my '95 525i 24v Touring auto before the low fuel light came on.

Well, all that maths was about as exciting as watching stone-cold oil drain out of a sump on a winter's day 

Derek M5-you're naturally not biased towards the M5 in any way

Engine sounds are very personal choices-I find it depends what mood I'm in. Sometimes I like the smooth 'zing' of the small-block BMW straight-six.

Most of the time though I love the aggressive V8 bark of the 540i at the redline-more of an 'I'm going to head-butt you' type of engine noise than the cultured howl of the 6-pot, or the aggressive cultured bellow of the M5 at the redline

My next door neighbour will totally outdo all of us though-he has a 1970 Chevvy Camaro 5.7 V8, and the snarling racket this monster makes at idle makes my 540i, even at the redline, sound like a broken washing machine.

When he blipped the throttle and I was standing at the back of this tank, an unholy cloud of hot, sooty exhaust smoke nearly knocked me over and gassed me.

Something to do with 'rich mixture on the carburettors', whatever those strange things are

Sadly if I had an M5 the local ***heads would try and 'borrow' it-my 540i already had 1 failed attempt to steal it from the driveway and suffered a damaged door and steering lock, which I bodge repaired.

They didn't even bother with my old blue boring 525i Touring, so there's another reason for Joe Bloggs upgrading to a BMW to avoid the 'sexy' models and get a less-desirable-to-thieves model.

Such as a 525i 24v Vanos perhaps?

See-you all know it makes sense

RedOctober wrote:   Derek M5-you're naturally not biased towards the M5 in any way

Biased? Moi, Incroyable!!

RedOctober wrote: cultured howl of the 6-pot, or the aggressive cultured bellow of the M5 at the redline

RedOctober wrote: Sadly if I had an M5 the local ***heads would try and 'borrow'

Funny how our dopey Alsation did nothing as the tea leaves tried to purloin my 540i.

Had they tried to steal the 525i Touring, which he goes out in, I'm sure he would have kicked up some kind of a rukus as he'd get no 'walkies' then 

I've never let him forget his useless 'guard dogging' farce though

Derek M5 wrote: RedOctober wrote:   Derek M5-you're naturally not biased towards the M5 in any way Biased? Moi, Incroyable!! RedOctober wrote: cultured howl of the 6-pot, or the aggressive cultured bellow of the M5 at the redline Nowt like it... RedOctober wrote: Sadly if I had an M5 the local ***heads would try and 'borrow'  That's why I'm on my second one [ UOTE=fingerman]Derek M5 - I bet you have one of these outside your house ! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-M5-ParkingSign-for-3-5-7-series-m3 -z3-z4-320-Gift_W0QQitemZ130027230232QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1037 4QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Yeah! and we've got one of these which is why we've got tourers and he thinks that they were invented just for trips to the park...they probably were!.Anyway shouldn't you lot get sensible and stick to 525's as you know they are the best all rounders. I really appreciate the commitment shown to the 540 as it truly is a fantastic vehicle  and with you guy's behind it  they will run for ever. However what about us humble but wise 525 owners, yes, us, the salt of the earth. The people who have assisted in declassifying the snob status of the e34. I'd only ever bought one years ago because I wanted to attain snob status now I find I'm down there with the guttersnipes. so much for Practical Mechanics.

I'm Common .....I'm Common