Ring regulars - insurance
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Forum Name: BMW ///M Power
Forum Discription: Ask your BMW M Power Technical Questions here (M1, M2 hybrids, M3, M5 & M6)
URL: http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=33659
Printed Date: 29-April-2024 at 00:25
Topic: Ring regulars - insurance
Posted By: 215DMX
Subject: Ring regulars - insurance
Date Posted: 05-October-2006 at 15:47
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This is from another site (northloop.co.uk)
Thought it should be aired ! QUOTE: Called various insurance companies, firstly Adrian Flux. I asked about cover for both road and track cars. The very helpful young lady read me out a very beautifully worded message drom her screen that stated that the Ring is not covered both 'generally' and 'specifically'. I asked her what that meant (reminded her the Ring is a public toll road, not a track day, it has speed limits etc). Her response was (along the lines of): "General exlusions sir, they include items such as you not being covered if you crash your vehicle whilst under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Whereby we would pay for any damage to the third party we would not in any way cover you or your vehicle against personal injury or damage. The clause relating to the Nurburgring exists also within our General exclusions - however as well as being a 'general exclusion' it is now also a 'specific exclusion'. A specific exclusion is unique to your policy, for example if you were Third Party Fire + Theft a specific exclusion will be no windscreen cover. A general exclusion applies to ALL of our policy holders and must be accepted before agreeing to take out insurance with us. A specific exclusion is as I outlined earlier". I told her that I knew of some people that drive the Ring and are insured with them (don't worry everybody I had given her none of my personal details so she had no idea who I was). She stated, in no uncertain terms that there insurance does NOT (in ANY way) cover use on the Nordschleife as it is both generally and specifically excluded. If a person had an incident neither that person, nor the third party would be covered. The third parties own insurance company would have to foot the bill for physical or personal injury - however they would then sue the non insured driver. Now, imagine if you had an off, that resulted in damage to someones expensive car and they suffered injury that affected ther capacity to work in either the short or long term..... END QUOTE This has me a bit worried now. I'm with Adrian Flux, and there is no mention of anything to do with toll roads unrestricted or otherwise or any mention of the Ring on any documentation I have from them. When I first got insurance with them about early 2005 i did ask about any restrictions in driving in Europe, none were given. Nor on my renewal this year either. So to hear they have issued restrictions without informing me is VERY worrying indeed ! How/ Where are you supposed to find out about these general/ specific restrictions if they don't tell you, I can't find anything on there website either Dave |
Replies:
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 05-October-2006 at 16:39
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IF loads of people ring there insurance company to
ask we are all buggered ! catch 22? |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 05-October-2006 at 17:03
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Dave, you need to read your policy details AND the general policy/assumptions of the insurer. If there is no referance then you have a strong legal argument for the case that you are insured. I guess you have done this already.
Secondly, Adrian Fu**s (They screwed me proper once) are only a broker and therefor are not responsible for the terms of your cover, they mearly sell you the product. I find it difficult to believe that they can dictate terms to you outside of the underwriters terms. Steve |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 05-October-2006 at 20:20
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--YOU are going on a race track.
--YOU are going to push things to the limit --YOU might overdo it --YOU decide how fast you drive so why should everybody else pay for it??? Unless you make a SPECIFIC track insurance with an appropriate fee, I can't see why the insurance should cough up! You should take it like a man when you stuff it in the armco. Like the poor fella who wrote the M5 off this weekend. He didn't moan for a second. Respect! ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: kevin
Date Posted: 05-October-2006 at 20:49
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I agree with Uwe regarding "real" track days in the UK and also about
Mark who didn't complain once during the trip back to Calais about the
loss of his M5. Please just read, very carefully, the wording in the insurance docs but "even more pleading here" please, please, please, please do not phone them up and ask if they will cover you for a 20km piece of road that has the highest accident record in the region. I recommend End of Topic on this now... ------------- Kevin '04 E46 330Ci Convertible '08 E61 535d Touring (TorqueMeister Towbarge) ’95 E34 M5 ’89 E30 M3 (Cecotto) |
Posted By: texas2201
Date Posted: 05-October-2006 at 21:07
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Which Mark was that - not Mr Safe I hope? My thoughts are with him - I am assuming nobody was hurt....
------------- Martin - www.iconicmotorcars.co.uk E30 M3 now sold :-(/Lotus Elan SE Turbo/Lotus Excel SE/Lotus Excel SA/Audi A8 - now Tow Barge - Quattro 4.2 |
Posted By: Dannyboy
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 05:02
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I have my insurance through adrian flux and I disceussed track days with
them at the time of taking it out. I seem to remember that they said my policy did not cover it as standard but extra cover was only about £80 with excess being 10% of the agreed value. Hope this helps. ------------- 1992 clio 1.8 16V Good 1998 Subaru Impreza Turbo Terzo Great 1987 M3 Diamond Black Awesome (Now awesomer with Billys & Eibach) |
Posted By: Hoofty
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 07:21
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Did they mention whether that was £80 for a full year, or £80 for each specific day? It's by no means cheap (esp if you spend a lot of time there!) but you can cover 90% of the value of your car at the 'Ring with Competition Car Insurance. They'll relieve you of £110 per day for the trouble, but if you absolutely need to be sure then it might be worth looking into. ------------- '89 E30 M3 '99 106 GTi |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 08:33
That's £110 well spend if you thrash something round there worth £25+...... ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Hoofty wrote:Posted By: spokey
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 08:41
Eek! Who was it? Anyone we know?? ------------- Ciao, Spokey 
|
Posted By: rattusM3
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 08:47
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Of course you can get insurance for track days (separate payment per event) due to its controlled environment BUT you mention the Ring and I think you may be in trouble, also I have heard (but do not quote me on this) that you will be FLAGGED as a potential risk even by just querying the Ring. Track Days, yes I will pay for extra cover if I feel it was necessary. The Ring, I would NOT even bring it up in any conversation with my insurer AT ALL. As already mentioned, we all know the risks, just get an ADAC card, I will be next year. Need to ask Kevin about this actually. Kevin ------------- E28 Alpina B9 E28 M535i (now a donor for B9) E24 M6 (work has started to get back up to scratch) E30 M3 (New Engine (almost), Cams, Brakes, ECU, Suspension, Alpha-N - Thanks Stannard Motors) E39 530i Touring - Now Sold, sob, sob E39 523i Touring |
Posted By: flyingalexf68
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 08:49
Like an M5. £110 very well spent if you're doing a full day on the 'Ring. Might not be worth it if you're just doing one ar two laps on a busy day. Good to know it's available though. ------------- 1995 e36 3.0 M3 Coupe, Daytona Violet, AP Racing BBK, CCFL Angel Eyes, M3 Spoiler, M-Tec 3 Steering Wheel. 2000 530d Steptronic, Poverty Spec, 18" Alloys. |
Posted By: korky
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 09:41
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From my couple of ring trips, the things to remember are, its a long way home, and if you dont have a trailer you need to drive it. Its unbelievably busy. There are cars and bikes taking all kinds of lines. There is very little room for error if you are at 10/10ths. Its a fantastic circuit! But I try to keep within my limits and remember the above (must admit the occasional red mist moment or 3) I try and treat it as a great weekend away, a nice social as well as some fantastic driving. I am amazed that, with very few rules, and a lot of very tasty machinery, there is not far more carnage. I am sure others treat it differently, but I assume I am not insured if it all goes belly up, so this approach works for me... ------------- Mark 1990 E30 M3 |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 09:45
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and it's not only your own damage you have to pay for.
Armco repair, closure of the track, cleaning, towing fee.... That adds all up to several THOUSAND Euros in an blink of an eye. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 11:20
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I know this will sound boring and some of you won't like it but as I've said before if you take a naive approach on matters relating to insurance you will be crucified and hung out to dry.
Insurance law is unusual and the usual rules do not apply. You have got to do your homework and you should never assume anything. For example, someone suggested above that you can assume that you are insured for something if it doesn't say you are not. In other words if the policy is silent you reckon you're okay. That is nonsense, extremely dangerous and very very naive. Let's imagine you're trying to claim for £25k self inflicted damage at the 'Ring. Or even worse - let's imagine that you've run into someone and rendered them a lifelong tetraplegic. Now try convincing your insurer that even though the policy is silent you should be able to claim cover because the 'Ring is a toll road... Guys - I'm not revelling in bad news - just telling you what you need to know |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 14:03
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I think some of you are getting confused with TRACK
DAYS and road insurance and how it applies in this instance. The ring IS a public road during TF. BUT if you have an accident and someone else is badly hurt and couldn't work for 6 months. Their 3rd party cover would cover any damage but YOU would be sued for tens of thousands by thier insurance company as you were driving without valid insurance!!! could you afford that risk ! |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 06-October-2006 at 16:34
Forgive me for being a pedant but even that comment adds to the confusion... The confusion revolves around whether you are or are not covered under a road policy for losses incurred whilst driving on the 'Ring. The policy may or may not make it clear whether cover for track days is included but a day at the 'Ring is not considered to be a track day by almost all insurers. If your policy includes cover for track days do not assume that this includes driving on the 'Ring. Again, sorry to be so pedantic but there is no substitute for absolute clarity in insurance matters |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 07-October-2006 at 08:46
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I think i was quite clear actually.
There is a EU directive which states all member countries have to, by LAW, provide the minimum 3rd party cover for you or anybody else. However it seems if you call your insurance company and ask them about driving on the ring most will now say you are NOT covered. A note will be made on your file. This 'could' be a loophole for the insurance companies to get out of this EU directive... |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 07-October-2006 at 09:51
I would still try to claim for 3rd party stuff. Equal rights? How can I be excluded (only for the fact I have asked) and somebody else is not? So what's the view on Armco damage? ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: b7 eater
Date Posted: 08-October-2006 at 12:38
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Spokey and Martin Can report that it was definately not Mr Safe!
Hope it wasnt anyone else we know. ------------- E21 323i baur E34 M5 M3 GT |
Posted By: texas2201
Date Posted: 08-October-2006 at 17:19
I spoke to Grant today and he thought it was Mark with the blue E39 that came 1st in August in our group..... ------------- Martin - www.iconicmotorcars.co.uk E30 M3 now sold :-(/Lotus Elan SE Turbo/Lotus Excel SE/Lotus Excel SA/Audi A8 - now Tow Barge - Quattro 4.2 |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 08-October-2006 at 17:27
why is it so important who it was? And what difference does it make if we know him or not? Personally I don't want anybody to come home with a 20k loss... If the guy want to remain silent, so be it. Respect it. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: BMG M3
Date Posted: 08-October-2006 at 17:39
Bottom line is,unless it excludes the Ring by name, you're covered.They will also have to pay the armco bill too.I know that for a fact. 
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Posted By: b7 eater
Date Posted: 08-October-2006 at 19:44
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Uwe, as someone asked if it was my husband, I kind of thought it was nice to let them know that it wasnt. However, I know the Mark in question and as far as I am aware nobody is trying to make him speak, Just wishing that it had not happened to him, I do not wish any harm to anybody or their property, whether I know them or not. I was unaware that it was not allowed to hope that those you know are safe and well. Jacque Safe ------------- E21 323i baur E34 M5 M3 GT |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 08-October-2006 at 20:09
I want everybody to be safe and well. Doesn't matter if I know them or not. It just sounds strange to me if I read/hear comments excluding people we don't know, like it wouldn't matter if they are not safe and well. I am sure that was not your intention at all. In the end we are all crazy petrolheads no matter if we know each other or not. For my part, I would have never ever mentioned anything about that crash if not everybody was unhurt in the first place. Going fast around the Ring is always risky, doesn't matter how many laps you have done. Even the locals do get in trouble from time to time. I have seen too many cars of my friends lying on the roof in the past, so I might be a little bit oversensitive on that subject. Hope you didn't take offence, if so my apolgise. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: b7 eater
Date Posted: 08-October-2006 at 20:16
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Uwe I took no offence. Believe me when I say that I am no newcomer to what can happen on the ring.
------------- E21 323i baur E34 M5 M3 GT |
Posted By: 215m3
Date Posted: 09-October-2006 at 19:31
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Are the coaches covered when they take 50 tourists round? Just thought i'd throw this in to the couldron ------------- Toby http://www.bmminiparts.com - New Genuine BMW & Mini OEM parts - www.bmminiparts.com 1987 E30 M3 with turbo being added |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 09-October-2006 at 20:07
Interesting point! But was there ever an accident with a coach? Doubt it. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: texas2201
Date Posted: 09-October-2006 at 21:21
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Hi Uwe Just wanted to know all was OK and if I knew him from August/Croft/Cadwell/Silverstone......I hope he gets it sorted out satisfactory You always have to be "aware" in a hypersensitive way when you drive the Ring and exponentially on Open days
------------- Martin - www.iconicmotorcars.co.uk E30 M3 now sold :-(/Lotus Elan SE Turbo/Lotus Excel SE/Lotus Excel SA/Audi A8 - now Tow Barge - Quattro 4.2 |
MartinPosted By: TRACKPIG
Date Posted: 13-October-2006 at 17:05
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in the terms and conditions of the elephant insurance policy it states you are not covered on deristricted toll roads. is the ring a deristricted toll road? if so i prob wasnt insured when i was at the ring last? ------------- REMEMBER- POWER IS NOTHING WITHOUT KELLY REMOULDS E30 325 Sport - Gone but not forgotten E36 M3 evo Suzuki GSXR 750 Track Piece |
Posted By: BMG M3
Date Posted: 13-October-2006 at 17:17
In the Ring car park by the ticket office,there is a large sign in German and English with the rules of using the Ring,I'm 99% sure that the Ring is classed by Nurburgring GMBH as " deristricted toll road ". Maybe someone who is going soon can confirm this ? |