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One for Nigel...

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Printed Date: 30-April-2024 at 11:37


Topic: One for Nigel...
Posted By: kbannon
Subject: One for Nigel...
Date Posted: 21-February-2007 at 09:11
http://www.ash.ie/News/Latest_News/ASH_call_for_Smoking_Ban.html - http://www.ash.ie/News/Latest_News/ASH_call_for_Smoking_Ban. html
Quote

ASH Ireland call for Smoking Ban in all Motor Vehicles

Date: 20 February 2007

ASH Ireland call for Smoking Ban in all Motor Vehicles.

20th Feb 2007 - Ash Wednesday call from ASH Ireland…

ASH Ireland today called on the government to introduce a smoking ban in all motor vehicles in the best interest of health and road safety. The workplace smoking legislation introduced in 2005 did not restrict smoking in private vehicles.

Professor Luke Clancy, Chairman of ASH Ireland said today, “Our anti-smoking legislation has been extremely successful and the government are again to be complimented on an initiative which is being replicated all around the world. I believe that smoking should be banned in cars as it raises issues in relation to health as well as road safety. Smokers must light up, hold the cigarette, deposit the ash and dispose of the cigarette - all whilst driving. If it is not safe to hold a mobile phone while driving – it’s difficult to see how it can be safe to smoke. For health reasons there are obvious risks. The smoker is at additional risk in such a confined space as are all other passengers who use the car during and after the smoking. This would apply in particular to young children who are particularly vulnerable to the effects of environmental tobacco smoke (ETS).

Recent research from Health Services Executive West shows that 9% of non-smokers allow adults to smoke in a car with children present, while 37% of smokers allow smoking in the same situation.

As we approach another Ash Wednesday it is opportune for the government to look at this health proposal. A decision to implement this health initiative would merely require an amendment to the 2005 legislation. Once again this initiative would be welcomed by those with a genuine concern in health and would be followed elsewhere all around the world – just as our workplace legislation has been.

Regrettably, over 6600 people die from tobacco related disease in this country each year – and it is imperative that every possible initiative is taken to alleviate this horrific statistic.

ENDS
Further information
Professor Luke Clancy, 086-8364337
Wally Young, Young Communications 01 668 0530

ASH Ireland is funded by the Irish Cancer Society and Irish Heart Foundation


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Current: 2009 E60 520d "Sport" tractor
Previous: 1989 E30 320i SE
1997 E39 523i
2003 E39 525i Sport Individual



Replies:
Posted By: Fey!
Date Posted: 21-February-2007 at 12:32

E$%£"^%^&"%£!"$!"^%£^*&%$$!"%^£$"&%£"!!!

I agreed with the smoking ban in public buildings, but this is really extracting the urine.  Next I won't be able to smoke in my own house (you can't if you have someone working in your house with the way the law currently stands).

Thinking about texting the guy above.



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"http://www.tempoantiques.com"">


Posted By: kbannon
Date Posted: 21-February-2007 at 12:35
I do think anyone smoking in a confined space when children are present should be castrated and the kids taken away!

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Current: 2009 E60 520d "Sport" tractor
Previous: 1989 E30 320i SE
1997 E39 523i
2003 E39 525i Sport Individual


Posted By: Fey!
Date Posted: 21-February-2007 at 12:36
I don't have kids, and I don't smoke around other peoples rugrats.  I also don't attempt to light up in other peoples cars/homes unless invited to.

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"http://www.tempoantiques.com"">


Posted By: Peter Fenwick
Date Posted: 21-February-2007 at 12:45

LOL

I'm glad I quit smoking.

Next they'll be stopping people smoking in the house if they have kids

I don't agree with it but it is going to wind a lot of people up



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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.


Posted By: dryle
Date Posted: 21-February-2007 at 13:08

it was on the last word on today fm that they were thinking of campaigning for people to ban smoking in their homes. with regard to ash statement that ireland were the first to ban smoking in public places it was actually guilliani in new york at least 4 yrs ago. michael martin jumped on the band wagen.

smaking is banned in my house if the father in law wants to smoke he goes outside, i have the odd cigar and smoked inside once and said never again the next morning. i go outside my own home for a cigar.



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Dave Ryle


"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- George Bernard Shaw


Posted By: Mick525i
Date Posted: 21-February-2007 at 14:45

Originally posted by kbannon kbannon wrote:

I do think anyone smoking in a confined space when children are present should be castrated and the kids taken away!

Agreed



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Cheers
Mick

BMW E21 318 1980
BMW E39 525i 2002 MTech
VW Golf Gti 2003


Posted By: flyingalexf68
Date Posted: 21-February-2007 at 20:45
The New York smoking ban was nowhere near as comprehensive as the one
in Ireland. I think there was one in Torronto a few years back too. The ban in
Ireland is a 'workplace ban'. Nobody can smoke ANYWHERE people are
working (except outside). Not just bars and restaurants. It really works and I
have no doubt it will be introduced in the UK soon. I really don't agree with
banning smoking in private places including your own car or house,
(Smoking IS banned in company cars and work vans during working hours),
just because its a civil liberty type of argument.

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1995 e36 3.0 M3 Coupe, Daytona Violet, AP Racing BBK, CCFL Angel Eyes, M3 Spoiler, M-Tec 3 Steering Wheel.   
2000 530d Steptronic, Poverty Spec, 18" Alloys.


Posted By: dryle
Date Posted: 21-February-2007 at 22:12

Originally posted by flyingalexf68 flyingalexf68 wrote:

The New York smoking ban was nowhere near as comprehensive as the one
in Ireland. I think there was one in Torronto a few years back too. The ban in
Ireland is a 'workplace ban'. Nobody can smoke ANYWHERE people are
working (except outside). Not just bars and restaurants. It really works and I
have no doubt it will be introduced in the UK soon. I really don't agree with
banning smoking in private places including your own car or house,
(Smoking IS banned in company cars and work vans during working hours),
just because its a civil liberty type of argument.

it was a near total ban

< =text/>

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/smoke/smoke.shtml - Bureau of Tobacco Control

Smoke-Free Air Act of 2002

The Smoke Free Air Act (SFAA) of 2002 protects the health of New York City workers against the harmful effects of second-hand smoke by making virtually all workplaces smoke-free.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/smoke/tc1.shtml - http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/smoke/tc1.shtml



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Dave Ryle


"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- George Bernard Shaw


Posted By: Nigel
Date Posted: 23-February-2007 at 08:42

The first place I encountered this non smoking crap was Canada, in the early 90's.

I remember that for some reason my flight was changed from BA to Air Canada or whatever, my ticket still said business class smoking, and after take off, once the lights went out, I lit up....trolley dollies appeared from everywhere....it was the first and last time I've ever used that airline, although your banned on all flights now except the airlines where the planes don't have mot's.

I had the same experience in the first bar I went to in Toronto.

I've been spoken to in the states for smoking whilst walking within 20 yards of a public building, in some states you can smoke whilst driving but you can't light it !, and I think it was Sweeden, years ago I was pulled by a traffic cop, over there you can't smoke in the front of a car in case the red end reflects in the windscreen and confuses the driver....even if you are the driver and promise not to be confused by it

The smoking ban is in active in Scotland, Wales next month, and England in July.....but its just been overturned in the EU parliament....because they wouldn't stick to it.

It will also still be allowed in the house of commons.

It has been reported on radio four that English councils are spending £20,000,000 on inspectors.

Its getting out of hand, but I'll still be smoking at work, and I'll continue to smoke in my car...regardless.

 

.

 



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Best Wishes

Nigel



Posted By: Rossi
Date Posted: 23-February-2007 at 09:28
Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

except the airlines where the planes don't have mot's.



Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

Its getting out of hand, but I'll still be smoking at work, and I'll continue to smoke in my car...regardless.


I only smoke in other peoples cars but, not my own..




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Posted By: Peter Fenwick
Date Posted: 23-February-2007 at 09:52
Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

It will also still be allowed in the house of commons.

One law for us one law for them...

Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

It has been reported on radio four that English councils are spending £20,000,000 on inspectors.

A bit excessive IMO. They don't have Drink drive inspectsors and I bet that kills a lot more people than passive smoking.

Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

Its getting out of hand,

I not a fan of smoking but I agree it is going a little bit too far now.

Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

but I'll still be smoking at work, and I'll continue to smoke in my car...regardless.

Careful Nigel, you wouldn't want to end up in trouble with the law...

 



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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.


Posted By: Peter Fenwick
Date Posted: 23-February-2007 at 09:58
Originally posted by Mick525i Mick525i wrote:

Originally posted by kbannon kbannon wrote:

I do think anyone smoking in a confined space when children are present should be castrated and the kids taken away!

Agreed

If you are going to start punishing parents for doing things that may harm their childrens health you would have to do the same to parents who let their children become over weight etc. At the end of the day you can't enforce good parenting. I don't like it when I see parents smoking all over their kids in cars so in principle I would agree with you but in practive it would be a slippery slope to a total nanny state.



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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.


Posted By: dryle
Date Posted: 23-February-2007 at 10:10
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

Originally posted by Mick525i Mick525i wrote:

Originally posted by kbannon kbannon wrote:

I do think anyone smoking in a confined space when children are present should be castrated and the kids taken away!

Agreed

If you are going to start punishing parents for doing things that may harm their childrens health you would have to do the same to parents who let their children become over weight etc. At the end of the day you can't enforce good parenting. I don't like it when I see parents smoking all over their kids in cars so in principle I would agree with you but in practive it would be a slippery slope to a total nanny state.

with regard to childerns becoming overweight there are two side to look at it

  1. the parents are overweight and dont care
  2. the parents are health freaks and kids are rebelling.

in relation to parents smoking in front of their childern well that is despicable as they see the parents smoking and think it is ok. my father was gven a year to live before i was born as they took one lung out and told him to stop smoking, he didnt but lived until i was 11, they didnt tell him if he kept smoking he would die because telling him that probably would have killed him



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Dave Ryle


"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- George Bernard Shaw


Posted By: geriv
Date Posted: 23-February-2007 at 10:24

Regarding the smoking in public places - i really wish some other European countries would catch up a bit!

Had a mini break in Berlin couple of weeks ago and went to really nice restaurant for a meal, it was packed with every table full and yes, two guys decided to light up and smoke cigars right in the middle while loads of us were eating! disgusting! and despite complaints just got a shrug of the shoulders, was so cold as well there were no windows etc open for ventilation, yuk!

Went to see a game at the Nou Camp last october and an old bloke sitting right in front of us decided to smoke a cigar in the middle of the match, great!! could hardly see the bloody footie for the smoke!!

Hope they do make a few changes in these places cos it's a mighty shock to have to put up with it when we've got used to how things are over here!



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http://imageshack.us">


Posted By: dryle
Date Posted: 23-February-2007 at 11:00
Originally posted by geriv geriv wrote:

Regarding the smoking in public places - i really wish some other European countries would catch up a bit!

Had a mini break in Berlin couple of weeks ago and went to really nice restaurant for a meal, it was packed with every table full and yes, two guys decided to light up and smoke cigars right in the middle while loads of us were eating! disgusting! and despite complaints just got a shrug of the shoulders, was so cold as well there were no windows etc open for ventilation, yuk!

Went to see a game at the Nou Camp last october and an old bloke sitting right in front of us decided to smoke a cigar in the middle of the match, great!! could hardly see the bloody footie for the smoke!!

Hope they do make a few changes in these places cos it's a mighty shock to have to put up with it when we've got used to how things are over here!

we were in paris many moons ago and went into a restaurant no non smoking section in there but there was no problem with it affecting us the ventilation must have been good and the ceiling was about 20ft high. now however with the rug rats we would probably avoid these places to prevent the sprogs being affected.

the vitners federation wanted to allow for better ventilation systems within the bars to prevent the smoking ban but it was quashed because the publicans stingy  that they are would not turn on the ventilation system to save on running costs. another plus for not going ahead with the "improved ventilation system is that most publicans would only install an extract system and with no proper means of make up air only through doors and windows which in mid winter would be closed to keep the cold out the ventilation system is damn all use.

if they installed a correct system with proper supply vent to offset the extract then they would have to increase their boiler plant to heat the fresh air and propably install a chiller to cool during summer as there is a lot of air required to offset the smoking, this would increase the levels of CO2 emissions from such places, there are guidelines in CIBSE but they were not being adhered to by designers as publicans did not want to spend the money.

ihtssl

in relation to stadiums they should allow smoking if people want to as the law stipulates either no roof or 50% free wall, if you look at stadiums they comply with both in a way. bring a pocket fan and the next time you are at a match and someone lights up in front of you switch on the fan and that will blow the smoke out of your way.



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Dave Ryle


"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- George Bernard Shaw


Posted By: Coasting
Date Posted: 23-February-2007 at 12:23

As a smoker who works in Scotland, but lives in England, and drives between both....I reckon that the DMZ zone on the border, a 40ft piece of land, is a good place to stop in future.

Strictly speaking, the law can't be applied there.



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Now with FREE HPI CHECK and FREE GLASSES GUIDE VALUATIONS for all members!



Posted By: billgates e30
Date Posted: 23-February-2007 at 23:43
i'm not allowed to talk on my pohne in the car

i'm not allowed to eat an apple

or have my macdonalds drink to mouth

and get fined etc


and yet i can pick up a pack of fags, get one out, find my lighter, light up, constantly drive with one hand on the wheel as i deliver a cancer stick to my mouth, and then trow it out of the window littering the verge

and yet, this is not illegal

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Bill Gates aka Chris

http://www.bmwclubne.co.uk - BMW Club NE


Posted By: Nigel
Date Posted: 24-February-2007 at 01:00

Throwing it out of the car littering the verge is illegal, and to be honest so is smoking it if it can be shown that doing so is affecting your driving :

 

Section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, as amended by the Road Traffic Act 1991, creates offences of driving without due care and attention and driving without reasonable consideration on a road or public place.

It states:
3 If a person drives a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or public place, he is guilty of an offence.

IMPORTANT NOTE
This section creates two separate offences and it is bad for duplicity to charge them as alternatives.

There are a number of defences to this offence -
                              automatism
                              unconsciousness/sudden illness
                              duress - by threats & of necessity
                              sudden mechanical defect
                              assisting in arrest of offenders
                              authorised motoring event

As with causing death by dangerous driving under section 1, the term 'motor vehicle' has been replaced by 'mechanically propelled vehicle'. The offence can be committed in a 'PUBLIC PLACE' as well as on a road.

It is a question of fact as to whether driving is careless. The standard of care and attention is an objective one, in no way related to the degree of proficiency or degree of experience attained by the individual driver. A learner driver can quite easily be convicted of an offence. A driver who continues driving when overtaken by sleep is guilty of at least careless driving. Similarly, it is no defence that the driving was due to an error of judgement, although a driver may not be convicted if he was driving prudently and, confronted with a sudden emergency, made a wrong decision in the agony of the moment.

A defendant will have driven 'without due care and attention' if his driving has departed from the standard of care and skill that would, in the circumstances of the case, have been exercised by a reasonable, prudent and competent driver. The application of this standard enables this offence to cover cases ranging from momentary lapses in concentration or minor errors of judgement to deliberately bad or dangerous driving which, nevertheless, falls short of dangerous driving contrary to section 2.

It is a question of fact for the court to decide on the evidence as to whether or not driving is careless. The standard of care and attention is an objective one, in no way related to the degree of proficiency or degree of experience attained by the individual driver (see McCrone -v- Riding).

The standard is the same in the case of a driver who is a learner holding a provisional licence as it is in the case of the holder of a full driving licence.

Over the years case law has given various examples:

(1) A driver who continues to drive when tired and falls asleep is guilty. (see Kay v Butterworth 1945)
(2) The fact that a car leaves the road and mounts the pavement is primae facie evidence of an offence. (see Watts v Carter 1959)
(3) A driver must ensure that a person whose signal he is relying on is in a position to see the road properly. (Liddon v Stringer 1967)
(4) There is no special standard for police officers.
(5)  The principle of res ipsa loquitur (a thing speaks for itself) has no application in a criminal case such as driving without due care and attention, but the facts of a particular case might be such that, in the absence of some explanation, the only proper inference is that the driving was careless. In such a case there is a case to answer and the justices ought not to dismiss the summons on a submission at the close of the prosecution case. For example, a driver left the road and hit a telegraph pole. There was no reason why it should have happened, the car was in good order and the driver could not offer any explanation (Wright v. Wenlock [1971] RTR 228).

It might also be possible to draw adverse inferences (Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994) so long as there is some evidence available (a court cannot convict purely on the inferences alone). 

Charging standards relating to driving offences are agreed between the Police and the Crown Prosecution Service. It is their intention to aid the selection of the most appropriate charge. Examined here is the guideline for the offence of careless driving contrary to section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. This document considers the driving offence and examples of driving which constitute careless driving. It states:
The offence of careless driving is committed when the driving falls below the standard expected of a reasonable, prudent and competent driver in all the circumstances of the case.

The test is objective. It applies both when the manner of driving in question is deliberate and when the manner of driving occurs as a result of an error of judgement or simply as a result of incompetence or inexperience.

Section 38(7) Road Traffic Act 1988 states that failure to observe a provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself bring about criminal proceedings, but a failure, particularly a serious one, may constitute evidence of careless or dangerous driving.

CARELESS DRIVING

Prosecution for careless driving will be appropriate when the manner of driving demonstrates a serious miscalculation or a disregard for road safety, taking into account all the circumstances including road, traffic and / or weather conditions.

A charge of careless driving may be appropriate when an accident occurs and there is no evidence of mechanical defect, illness of the driver or other explanation to account for why the accident happened. In the absence of any such explanation the prosecution can provide evidence to the court about the accident on the basis that the defendant must have been driving below the standard expected of a reasonable, prudent and competent driver, since otherwise the accident would not have happened.

Examples of driving which may support an allegation of careless driving are:

1. Acts of driving caused by more than momentary inattention and where the safety of road users is affected, such as:
(i)   overtaking on the inside;
(ii)  driving inappropriately close to another vehicle;
(iii)  driving through a red light;
(iv) emerging from a side road into the path of another vehicle;
(v)  turning into a minor road and colliding with a pedestrian.

2. Conduct causing the driver to be unresponsive in the event of an emergency on the road, for example:
(i)    using a hand held mobile telephone while the vehicle is moving, especially when at speed;
(ii)   tuning a car radio;
(iii)  reading a newspaper/map;
(iv)  selecting and lighting a cigarette/cigar/pipe;
(v)   talking to and looking at a passenger which causes the driver more than momentary inattention;
(vi)  leg and / or arm in plaster;
(vii) fatigue/nodding off.

These examples explain the driver's conduct/behaviour, but this is not relevant to the choice of charge. It is actually the acts of driving which determine whether the driver has fallen below (careless driving) or far below (dangerous driving) the objective standard required.

For example, they may explain why the driver passed through a red light, but it is necessary to go beyond this explanation and consider whether the particular facts of the case warrant a charge of careless or dangerous driving.

When this conduct occurs the appropriate charge will usually be careless driving (section 3). But police officers and prosecutors must always consider the manner of the driving in the context of the other facts in the case to decide the most appropriate way forward.

see it mentions smoking....so stop whinging



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Best Wishes

Nigel



Posted By: billgates e30
Date Posted: 24-February-2007 at 01:29
i am not whinging as such, i just feel (as a non smoker) that everyone jumps upon mobile phone users (and rightly so when hands free is so cheap these days)

and smokers seem to get no press attention


anyone remember that story years ago where it got all blown out of proportion when a woman was "apparently" persued buy a police heicopter for eating an apple whislt driving

(i know this was ridiculous and all expanded upon by the media........bless them)


but all the same, what differece was it too the millions of people applying thier lippy in the rear view mirror or lighting a tab on thier way to work, not much, and yet it caries a very similar distractance rate as eating/talking on a mobile??

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Bill Gates aka Chris

http://www.bmwclubne.co.uk - BMW Club NE


Posted By: Rhys
Date Posted: 24-February-2007 at 10:09
Quote nodding off.


Hardly a legal term is it


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V reg Rustbucket Merc C220 Cdi estate
J Reg Saab 900i 16v
'63 Ford Anglia 105e deluxe
R reg Honda PC50 moped..

No BMW as yet...


Posted By: Nigel
Date Posted: 24-February-2007 at 10:37

lol, you wouldn't want the actual legal one.

That was "decoded" for us by one of the chaps from TA.

A lot of this driving stuff is absolute tosh, and an attempt by a poor government to grab headlines and be seen to doing something to try and reduce deaths on the road, whilst they wont actually do whats needed as it will lose votes.

In general I dissagree with much of the recent legislation, including the mobile phone one, and I can give you examples where recieving or making a call on my mobile is as good as a break.

Whenever you pick on a particular activity, smoking, mobile phones, eating, drinking (all of which as a so called advanced driver I have done / still do) you are failing to look at the overall picture.

Just as a small soundbite, I think your attitude towards driving will make up a lot of the skill needed to be so called "advanced"

 



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Best Wishes

Nigel



Posted By: Rhys
Date Posted: 24-February-2007 at 10:56
Here's another one..

How about having to change gear? You have to take one hand off the steering wheel so in effect you aren't in full control of your car - as well as having to muck about with your feet at the same time.

So me having a sandwich or whatever in my auto is less dangerous as I've no gears to change and no pedals to swap my feet about on.

..go figure.

(next they'll ban manual cars for that very reason. Three pedals.. two feet - hardly a safe combination )


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V reg Rustbucket Merc C220 Cdi estate
J Reg Saab 900i 16v
'63 Ford Anglia 105e deluxe
R reg Honda PC50 moped..

No BMW as yet...


Posted By: 540 V8
Date Posted: 24-February-2007 at 16:31

It's all gone a bit mad! I think smoking in a car can be just as dangerous as using a mobile. I have watched people light up whilst driving and using one hand to hold the cigarette and go all cross eyed while trying to light it for a period of 1-2 seconds which at about 30 mph is enough to have travelled about 15 metres.

Also, my mother in law has had several incidents while driving she has dropped her cigarette or the cherry off the end then literally had her head down in the footwell trying to stop it setting fire to the car while still driving!

I know smokers aren't all numbskulls but in a lot of cases, it can add to the danger of driving.

I wonder how many accidents have been caused by someone not concentrating due to a cigarette related incident? (and of course not writen on the accident claim form!)

I'm not picking on smokers because it doesn't make you a bad person, just a smelly one lol! but as previously mentioned, if eating an apple is a penalty offence, then smoking is much worse surely?

Mike



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Current:E34 540i Touring 6 speed manual(Mpower bodykit & suspension)& Chrysler Voyager 3.3 V6 auto
Previous:E34 530iSE AC Schnitzer suspension.
E28 525e auto-Standard


Posted By: Nigel
Date Posted: 24-February-2007 at 19:24
I'd suggest smoking isn't worse, as its a habit (like changing gear), not an activity, like eating an apple.

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Best Wishes

Nigel



Posted By: daddy cool
Date Posted: 24-February-2007 at 20:22

It seems you have all missed or forgotten to mention the whole reason for all these new laws regarding smoking . it is NOT about our wellbeing or antisocial behaviour (smoking) towards others . it is simply going to be another way of making money ! just like speed cameras . there willl be fines for people caught lighting up in prohibited places , hence the recruitment of enforcement officers .

 As someone that works in the car audio industry i can honestly say the increase in mobile phone handsfree car kits due to the new law coming into enforcement very soon has pretty much garunteed the healthiest bank balance we have had in almost 5 years so, many thanks to the overpaid overweight government bods , i owe you all a drink .

 

 someone allways makes money out of these government scams

 "stands back , dons flame suit and waits for it"



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e30 2.7 cab
e30 325i
e30 325 sport
e30 318 touring
e28 m5
e28 m535
e34 m5
e39 540
e36 318ti (green)
e36 318ti (mauve)


Posted By: thepits
Date Posted: 24-February-2007 at 21:06

Originally posted by daddy cool daddy cool wrote:

someone allways makes money out of these government scams  "stands back , dons flame suit and waits for it"

And good luck to you "Every cloud has a sliver lining"

Mobile Hands-Free kits have been around for so long - and are so cheap - I just can't understand why everyone hasn't got one?

should be a £1000 fine & 6points I say!  

anyway, back on topic.........



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Cats know your every thought.

But don't care.


Posted By: dryle
Date Posted: 01-March-2007 at 10:35
heres a nice picture

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Dave Ryle


"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- George Bernard Shaw



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