I for one agree that this law has been allowed to lapse so badly that it had become a joke. I know people who don’t even have a licence driving around because there is little or no chance of being caught. The only people that have ever asked me for my licence was a car rental company in another country!

 “Ireland is the only country you can fail your driving test and get in your car and drive home”, I laughed the first time I heard this, I wrote it off as typical of the Irish way of doing things.

 As I look at the rain coming down outside I ask myself how many people will die this bank holiday weekend because of a collision caused by in part or full by a provisional driver driving unaccompanied?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1026/roadsafety.html

I nearly fell out of my chair watching the 9 o'clock news yesterday with the guy, very indignantly declaring "I'm on my first provisional license; what I'm I suppose to do now!?" - he was, of course, unaccompanied!

I discussed this with work colleagues, one of whom, almost proudly, declared that she had failed her test 3 times and couldn't remember which number of provisional she was on... She thinks she's a "very good driver"; obviously the examiner disagreed - trice! The mind shudders at the thought of people who have failed a test numerous times, are still on the road.

I think the learner driver system should be done away with altogether and the sooner the better but Dempsey's decision to put people off the road is un-enforceable and it does indeed look like we're going to have some compromise/climb-down in how rigourously the new law will be enforced.

Better driver's education, better roads and strict enforcement of drink-driving (and drug-driving) laws are, in my view, the way to reduce the accident rate in this country.

Extract from Yesterdays irish independant

I find the attitude of some members here very strange. THe system worked for all of you so far and non of you complained when they where on a provisional license.

Maybe the system needs to be reworked I agree with that but what is going on now is just plain rubbish.

1.) The goverment promissed to get the waiting lists down to a couple of weeks or days even I heard them say. This hasn't happened.

2.) Most people on here havn't even done the "mickey mouse" theory test they applied for a lerner license and started driving. Test is still better than nothing as it shows you have a basic understanding of the rules.

3.) What happens to the 150tsd. or so people who work and need their car to get there? Are we asking them to break the law to do so?

4.) Are we asking the Garda to use "discretion" in their aproach? How is that going to work? You get let off on one checkpiont and then get b****xed 10 minutes later from a traffic cop?

I'm off to a meeting in Conemara as from the 12 people staff 6 are on a provisional license (might you they got insurance to drive the van with the kids) 4 have no license at all and two have a full license.THey work shifts so we are completely bollixed. Meet the accountnant and silicitors on Tuesday as we have to canccel countless groups and activities so I might sue the government for the damages as it was impossible to come up with a workable solution in the time given. From what I hear this happens to many many companies.

Great politics great teasoch just great place to make business.

oh and for the job so well done he and his ministers get the best payrise in the whole of europe. I'm realy discusted

netwhizkid - I agree with much of what you've said but let me get the right - you got a provisional license at 17, not to use it, but in order to drive un-accompanied on your second provisional license at 18? I would consider that a misuse of the system, as the first license is intended for you to gain experience while accompanied by another, fully qualified, driver. It is thus possible to drive unaccompanied without any experience, whatsoever; crazy system!

Compulsory lessons up to X number of hours for all in central locations (a bit like the NCT centres?) before getting any kind of license at all?  Then do a test, then R plate for 12 months.  At least that's my solution.

Chris; how did it work when you got your license?

We all ran the risk of getting in trouble for driving on our own when we had provisional licenses.  The way I see the current proposal working, the people who will suffer under it will be the people who drive like idiots, attracting the attention of the Gardai.

Netwhizkid; I believe that people have no more respect for their own mortality at 18 than they have at 17; maybe we should restrict the driving age to 35, seeing as ages for responsibility are being plucked from the sky.

EDIT:  re: the politicians, this situation has been getting steadily worse under FF, PD, and FG administrations.  Could it possibly be that the Green Party are forcing the government risk going against public popularity to actually try and make a few changes for the long term better???

Unfortunately, if this is true, we may have to recognise the Greens as being of some use...

@ Fey learned it in germany so you have to get all the theory then do 25hours with an instructor including night and motorway training. Then sit you theory exam and do your driving test in the instructors car. If you pass you can drive your own car.

This makes a driving licence very expensive (around 4000€ at the moment) 

People assume it's a god given right to go out, get a provisional liscence, buy a car and drive when in fact you have to earn it. Personally I would like system to adopt a French or German approach. 

The reason so many people are on 2nd 3rd etc. provisionals is a general apathy to the system, failure rate is 55% in certain areas and the test is just a thing to get out of the way so one can get another provisional and get driving again. Generally anyone not to have done or passed the test after 2 /3 years on the road is a cop-out. As bad as the goverment are, its rare for it to take more that a year to get a test date.

Simple example was my Wife did her test on her 1st lisence in Finglas back in 2001, Got provisional, applied for test in Jan01, purchased Pug 106 on 5th Feb. Took 10 drivers instructor lessons and passed the test april 16 2001. Granted during that time I had her sick to death of finglas and had her driving everywhere. She passed, got 300 quid rebate on her insurance. So why doesn't the rest do it ?? No incentive, but if the RSA clip the wings of provisional holders as they're trying to do now it might motivate people to take the whole thing seriously, apply themselves for the test properly and do it right first time considering now there's actual consequences for failing..

I find the whole situation in the South amazing.

I'd have loved to be one of the officers in the North who stopped a Southerner on a provisional.

Why do some of you guys think its ok to drive on a provisional without supervision ?

You'd actually have your car siezed here for doing that !

G.T. wrote: beemerchris wrote: @ Fey learned it in germany so you have to get all the theory then do 25hours with an instructor including night and motorway training. Then sit you theory exam and do your driving test in the instructors car. If you pass you can drive your own car. This makes a driving licence very expensive (around 4000€ at the moment)  Shoot, Chris...you should move to the Philippines. I can get you a driver's license, passport, heck...a completely new identity for a couple of thousand pesos. At the current excahnge rate, that's only about 9.95 euros (or thereabouts)!

LMAO   

maybe we should open a travel company over in germany organising trips with a licence

netwhizkid wrote: larzyh wrote: netwhizkid - I agree with much of what you've said but let me get the right - you got a provisional license at 17, not to use it, but in order to drive un-accompanied on your second provisional license at 18? I would consider that a misuse of the system, as the first license is intended for you to gain experience while accompanied by another, fully qualified, driver. It is thus possible to drive unaccompanied without any experience, whatsoever; crazy system! I got my first provisional a few days after my 17th Birthday and I started driving on it and was driving on it for 5 months before it expired and I then got my 2nd Provisional and am driving on that since while waiting for my test, my father or mother usually accompanied me on all journeys and we would often go on nonsensical journey's just simply so I could get used to driving, I drove these in both my Auto BMW and a Manual Toyota and I can drive both. This way I got enough experience and confidence in so I could drive on my own with my second provisional, a person has to learn to drive on their own too; one must remember because you can't have mam or dad with you while you are taking the practical driving test. What is happening now is nothing short of a nanny state and will actually contribute to higher failure rates in my opinion. Drivers Education is key and you have so many young people sitting behind the wheel and they haven't a clue how to drive a car properly or the risks involved. The same goes for the functioning of a car I'd estimate that 50% of drivers don't know the basics of how an internal combustion engine works or that a clutch isn't just a peddle. I understood most of this when I was 12yrs old. Also as a nation of Manual Cars there is the inherent dangers involved with Manuals as they are harder to drive when you begin driving  eg. stalling etc. In America they begin you in Automatics to let you get used to the complex nature of traffic and controlling a car and then migrate you onto Manual if you wish. This was how I started as I began in my Auto BMW and after a month moved to Manual and after a little practice got into that easily and I must say my slight auto experience helped me greatly in this aspect of my driving. Not to turn this into a Auto V Manual Debate but I think the way I did this was an excellent way and I spent over €400 in lessons from a Qualified instructor in teaching me how to drive in both Vehicles although I may have taken a few extra lessons in the Manual Car but this is because I plan to undertake my driving test in a Manual so as not to have Automatic Restriction on my licence leaving me free to choose either transmission method throughout my life. When I get my Licence it is will be no big deal as it is just a Licence plenty people have full driving licences and are worse drivers than any learner, approx. 30,000 people got free full licences under a licence amnesty to clear a backlog in the past. Adopting a safe and courteous driving mentality is key and this move by the Government is just another smoke-screen to scapegoat young drivers for the Governments inability to adopt better driving policies and improve our roads which are 20yrs behind Continental Europe, a starter they could make is exempt crucial modern safety features from VRT (Vehicle Registration Tax) which has seen a large percentage of Irish cars sold with poverty specs to ensure market prices as a result your "standard Irish" Model won't have much in the line of safety features and forget any toys or luxury like maybe GPS or Air-Conditioning as standard. These punitive taxes are forcing young people who generally have enough expense of Education and maybe a Mortgage into unsafe cars which is thus leading to higher fatalities on our roads. While the intention of the Government maybe good they sure are making a dog's dinner of the way they are going about doing it.

I Musy say netwhizkid that was a great reply you made there with a lot of very good points,Especially regarding people not knowing the BASIC controls of the car,within the last few weeks i have seen 3 people driving around my town in the dark with no lights on.Like how thick does someone have to be that you forget to turn on your lights, it is basic common sense..I know of 1 or 2 girls who dont even know what foglights are ar where to turn them on in a car.Dont even mention asc or dsc or ebd etc etc..There is proof that there is major lack in education to people who are learning..btw the im not making a sexist statement about girls,driving, they are just the particular examples i have seen..

Just on the point of lights here, nothing to do with driving licences.

I recently had a vauxhall astra 1.4 sxi on hire, the instrument panel & controls were entirely lit all the time the ignition was on........it is to date the only car that I feel I could have driven in a lit built up area without switching the lights on !

netwhizkid - I think the government is trying to catch up with the rest of Europe by, at least elliminating some of the ridiculous scenarios possible under the current system. I know of no European country other than the UK who operate a Learner Driver system (Edit: And Ireland, of course!).

I doubt if any fatal accidents happened as a direct result of somebody stalling their manually transmissioned car. Manual or automatic transmission does not make a fundamental difference to the safe operation of a motor vehicle.

I know many people who do not have any level of mechanical understanding but are perfectly "safe and courteous" drivers. It is fine to know how to operate a car without necessarily understanding the mechanics of it.

It should be a "big deal" to get a license; if it makes no difference just because some Learner Drivers are safer drivers than some drivers with a full license, one might as well not have a licensing system at all.

Safety is more likely to be a maintenance issue than whether the car left the factory with or without "extras". Which safety features are included in a UK BMW that is omitted from the Irish model? Most fatal accidents are considered a direct result of driver error.

Totally in agreement with your last point, not withstanding my first point.

Sure some of the driving test centres leave a lot to be desired, when i was doing my test I was in the driving school beside it before hand going thru some last minute checks, the instructors were commenting that the tester brought a motorcyclist thru a stop sign 3 times and he didnt stop once that same guy passed his test as he was the only one out at the time.

My test from the moment I met the tester to the time he gave me the slip of paper was 15 mins, I rang swmbo and she was astonished how quickly my test was over.

Dont forget the last time that there was a major backlog on people waiting for tests, they all got amnesties.

Its a load of if people want 2 drive on provisionals let them im on my 2nd so far if these boyz racer lads who giv every young lad a bad name get a full license they ill get cheaper insurance powerful cars and they ill think there great on there full if the cops get them that it wont be as bad as if they had there provisonal license still its not noing the rules of the road that is killing people its speed or drink drivers i could be on my provisonal license Full license or just hav a fishing license with me i could still do 150mph out a road and crash in to sum1 and kill him and myself wat should be done i think is bring in the speed cameraz or more guards on the roads.

Security2U wrote: Its a load of if people want 2 drive on provisionals let them im on my 2nd so far if these boyz racer lads who giv every young lad a bad name get a full license they ill get cheaper insurance powerful cars and they ill think there great on there full if the cops get them that it wont be as bad as if they had there provisonal license still its not noing the rules of the road that is killing people its speed or drink drivers i could be on my provisonal license Full license or just hav a fishing license with me i could still do 150mph out a road and crash in to sum1 and kill him and myself wat should be done i think is bring in the speed cameraz or more guards on the roads.

It's illegal thats why not.

In this case the Law is NOT an ass!

In the UK we already have enough trouble with un-licenced, un-taxed, so therefore un-insured drivers to last us a lifetime.

The UK driving test is rubbish - yes ok, I (and a few others here possibly) probably wouldn't pass it again now, but that doesn't mean it's any good, but rules is rules.

You pass it, you're allowed to drive alone anywhere - including motorways - but it doesn't mean you are a good driver.

But a provisonal driver hasn't even proved how bad they are

I love it when people say they couldn't pass their driving test now !

What pittsy is saying is he doesn't think he could reach the min standard required to be allowed to drive on British roads unsupervised.......

Of course he could !

The test over here is better than it has ever been, it just seems to be being bogged down with older people (possibly like pittsy) forgetting that they couldn't always drive, and have actually learnt a lot over the years, and they seem to want new drivers to have all their experience.

If you Irish boys really want to feel hard done by, imagine having to drive to the British system, you can't drive unsupervised at all until you've passed a test, theory, hazard perception, & practicle.

Security2U wrote: Its a load of if people want 2 drive on provisionals let them im on my 2nd so far if these boyz racer lads who giv every young lad a bad name get a full license they ill get cheaper insurance powerful cars and they ill think there great on there full if the cops get them that it wont be as bad as if they had there provisonal license still its not noing the rules of the road that is killing people its speed or drink drivers i could be on my provisonal license Full license or just hav a fishing license with me i could still do 150mph out a road and crash in to sum1 and kill him and myself wat should be done i think is bring in the speed cameraz or more guards on the roads.

Just get your full licence and stop whining.

kbannon wrote: b318isp wrote: The loophole should be tightened, but a lot more is needed (as per the UK system) to make a real difference. With operation GoSlow kicking off in a few weeks the risks on 1st/3rd prov licencees will increase.

Working in Dublin City Centre at the present, only for I know what the traffic I would be driving in. The train is a complete pain in the butt, never on time. Operation go slow should be fun this year if they start to clamp down on the licences. There was a major checkpoint on the locan road a couple of months back, about 20 Gardai checking tax/insurance. Large number of cars pulled in.

Do you boys not enjoy an anpr system yet ?

If not, I'm sure its coming

larzyh wrote: I know of no European country other than the UK who operate a Learner Driver system.

I'm surprised by this comment...I thought they all did, including you, but you choose not to enforce yours.

Our licences have been changing to fall inline with europe too, max weights, max seating etc etc.

Does this mean that us 'old-folk' can drive stuff that these young 'whipper-snappers' can't?

Quite right too!

(now where's me milk-float?)

Its strange how the licence classes have changed, and how people don't realise.

People with test pass before October 97 have 7.5 ton wagon, and 16 seat minbus on their licence, those afterwards don't, and anyone who has had to renew their licence doesn't (like me for diabetes)

So I can't drive a landrover safai for example.

Those of you still left with grandfather rights can still find yourselves on the wrong side of the law, as the british gov did a deal with europe, but hasn't told the public.

So, for example, pittsy and rhys can drive landrover safari's, transit minibuses, 7.5 ton trucks etc....................but............only in the uk, and only for private purposes, so you couldn't have the landrover as a company car for example, and you couldn't drive a 7.5 ton truck for work, and you couldn't hire a minibus and do a baccy run with your family to france........etc etc etc.

Its ok altering things, but not telling people is terrible, and they put the onus on you to find out with the "ignorance is no excuse" crap