Well..... how bad is it going to be. I have a 2.8td sitting at home in the drive way, after today the value could be half. On the radio this morning they were saying a 1.6lt could be considered a gas guzzler.

When you consider we already pay high car taxes, there going to increase them again because of the carbon footprint but yet on average, we as Europeans drive much smaller cc cars in Ireland compared to the rest of our european neighbours. Dont forget they gave themselves a very nice wage increase. They have to make up the short fall some where.

But 10% is still twice the rate of inflation. When they first mentioned recently the proposed increases for large engined cars, I thought I'd be OK; 1.6 and up!

I would have said; tax the heck out of 3.0+ (especially ministerial M-B's), but 1.6 - I was shocked...

larzyh wrote: I would have said; tax the heck out of 3.0+

I dont agree with this at all. Don520 hit the nail on the head there. It should be taxed on usage not engine size. I dont drive my Alpina that often, On a good week I might use it a few times over the weekend, sometimes I could go 6/7/8 weeks without using it but in order to drive it on the road it needs to have a valid tax disc on it. So if say I tax it for 3months and pay whatever it is now €350 or whatever it is and say I do 1000km over those 3 months, and someone with a 1.6 engine does 8000km over the same 3 months, all that is doing in penalising me for owning a second car, its doing nothing to help carbon emissions.

Whether they charge on engine size or usage doesn't matter too much to me.  Either way I'm screwed...... 

.... (3 cars, from 2.5l up and totalling about 40k pa miles between them)

Don520 wrote: Tax at the pumps makes much better sense, but why should sense influence anything this government does?

That is the best way IMO. The more you drive the more it's going to cost you. If you have a big engine'd car the more you have to put into it to keep it on the road. Unless your a "VERY CLOSE PERSONAL FRIEND OF BERTI'S".  

Well, I think it's fine for society to put tax on luxury goods. I would prefer to have higher tax on large engined cars (or horsepower or emissions or weight) and less on fuel.

I think there should be more tax on alcohol, tobacco, large cars, large and second houses and fatty, sugary ready-made food. Less tax on staples like rice, pasta, potatoes and bread. Fruit and vegetables should have not VAT levied at all.

larzyh wrote: I think there should be more tax on alcohol, tobacco, large cars, large and second houses and fatty, sugary ready-made food. Less tax on staples like rice, pasta, potatoes and bread. Fruit and vegetables should have not VAT levied at all.

Wow, you're really out to get me today.....!!  Hope the minister isn't on here trawling for last minute ideas! 

Yep! screwed at the pumps and again for tax!!!!!!!!! ouch.....why did i buy a 3.0l and a 2.0l.........

Anything we enjoy you have to pay for....fags,drink,driving fast cars....what ever next.....s##!!!  LOL

larzyh wrote: Well, I think it's fine for society to put tax on luxury goods. I would prefer to have higher tax on large engined cars (or horsepower or emissions or weight) and less on fuel.

Well lets just hope you never get into a position of power in the government.

Dont see why someone who is paying a lot of income tax at the higher rate should get screwed again because the might like to enjoy themselves by driving a sports car every now and again. If they are going to use the banner of Co2 emissions then they should actualy gear it towards that.

And all of this so the government can waste it anyway.

Well He has Just said he is changing VRT into 7 sectors A-G ranging from 14%-36% based on Co2 from July 1st.

Motor tax is going up by 9.5% on cars under 2.5l and 11% on cars over 2.5l from 1st Feb. Well I think I will tax the car in January so.

the ironic thing is this happened back in 1977 where tax was abolished and put on the petrol. People actually went out and bought big engined cars. It was a disaster in revenue terms and road tax was reintroduced a year later whilst keeping the levy on petrol.

I agree on the carbon neutral statment which is opposie to the SIMI pre-budget submission. ( the SIMI want a Japanese type levy on cars!!) in a nutshell they would like to see a levy being put on older 'dirty' Co emission cars and introduce a policy of buying newer cars..

See link below.....

http://www.ireland.com/focus/budget2008/submissions/simi.pdf - http://www.ireland.com/focus/budget2008/submissions/simi.pdf

lesurely wrote: It's    allll     a     load   of    B***ixxxx  (all together now)

To the air of.....?

btw. there appear to be a few winners and losers in the VRT changes.  I had a look at some samples that I keep an occassional eye on.

Winners:

• 320d's VRT rate drops by 10% compared to engine size based categorization - from 30% to 20%
• 120d - 10% drop
• 525d and 530d drops 2%
• 330d's drops 2%
• 318i and Ci 2.0 (i.e. from late'01) drops 2%
• MINI Cooper (not S) and One drop 1%
• 520d - e60 drops 6%

Losers:

• X3 2.5 petrol increases 6%
• 116i increases 3%
• 130i increases 2%
• 318i and Ci 1.9 e46 (up to '01) increases 3%
• 316i e46 increases 3%
• 320i, 323i, 325i, 328i, 330i e36 and e46 go up 2%
• 525i, 528i, 530i e39 and e60 go up 6%
• 730d pre facelift up 6% but facelift up 2%
• MINI Cooper S up 7%

All of these figures are based on manual transmission cars (except 730d).  Didn't look at X5's or some other stuff but as a rough rule of thumb automatic transmission and/or a body style that adds weight, e.g. e46 convertible,and increases CO2 output levels and may tip cars in to the next higher level of VRT.

One anomoly that could develop is that the residual values (OMSP) of used cars may be affected by the CO2 category because it will also effect roadtax.  If that's the case it could produce interesting results for imports in that the OMSP of higher co2 emitting will be lower than a near equivalent lower emitting car.  This could offset some or all of the increase in rates.  An example, currently the OMSP of a '04 330Ci Sport is about 2k more than a '04 330Cd Sport of the same mileage.  Under the new scheme VRT on the Ci will go up 2% and on the Cd will drop 2%.  If the differential on the OMSP was reversed then the amount of actual VRT paid on both cars if imported would actually be little changed from the figure that arises under the current system.

It seems to me then that the anomolies (and therefore opportunities for "bargains" - as far as there can be with a tax like this) may well lie in watching what the Revenue do with OMSP's after the change to the new method of calculation.

There may also be a sting in the tail for those of us that like slightly older cars.  If there isn't a CO2 figure available for a car, from an approved source, then the car will automatically be charged at the top rate of VRT.  So far I haven't been able to find a CO2 figure for my old e36 325i for example.

Dergside - you are a mine of information. Not surprised to see diesels going down but surprised to see that some petrols are going down. Will this be based on manufacturers published figures or will there be some independent testing?

I think that basing on emissions is OK; it at least elliminates the loophole of turbo/supercharged and rotary engines being assessed on cc's.

The government has a right (obligation?) to put tax on things it deems to be undesirable. This incentivises choices. Large engined cars are a luxury and people have the choice to drive something smaller (cheaper, less polluting etc). Putting higher amounts of tax on fuel penalises people who, out of necessity commute considerable distances.

I would love to have an Alpina B12 but you would not hear me complain about tax if I bought one. It's a choice that comes with some reasonable penalties.

Dergside wrote: 520d - e60 drops 6%

Dergside, just looking at the Co2 on the 520d for manual it is 136 and auto 149 g/km.

So that means for manual it drops from 30% to 16%  and the auto from 30% to 20%?

All cars since 2001 have a Certificate of Conformity (EU requirement) that includeds the CO2 output figure from the manufacturer.  Alternatively, it looks like the fgures will come from the manufacturers or distributors or a body approved by the Revenue to provide this information (I'd guess maybe the likes of the AA).

For imports, the person declaring the car will have to state what VRT category the car falls in to.  However, this will have to be supported by recognized supporting confirmations (i.e. a copy of the Certificate of Conformity, etc).  In the absence of proof of the output level the car will be charged by default at the highest rate of VRT.

Well there is reasonable and then there is ......

While the vrt increase might be just about digestable the new yearly tax certainly isn't. Will be interresting to see if cars built before 01 who dont have a cert of conformity will be automatically taxed at 2k or if they only do that to cars with available co2 data (01 onwards)

Otherwise there will be plenty of us paying 2 grand tax a year

redbag wrote: Dergside, just looking at the Co2 on the 520d for manual it is 136 and auto 149 g/km. So that means for manual it drops from 30% to 16%  and the auto from 30% to 20%?

Redbag, you are right in so far as a brand new 520d has a rating of 136 and 149 as you mentioned, but when first introduced in 2005 I understand that the figures were 158 and 185 (manual and auto) putting the manual in the 24% category and the auto in the 28% category.

Manufacturers have been moving fast in reducing co2 output levels over the past few years, so for example a '01 330i produced 218g/km whereas a brand new 330i produces 173 (both manual).

Just to point out, I've based my comments on details from http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/ - http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/  and was particularly interested in the effect on secondhand cars, as per the examples, just in case I wasn't clear.

larzyh wrote: The government has a right (obligation?) to put tax on things it deems to be undesirable. This incentivises choices.

I agree up to a point.  The point being that by the nature, in the case of cars, of the cost involved and the factors that go in to choosing a vehicle that meets particular requirements mean that typically it is difficult for people to change the characteristcs of their cars quickly.  I can decide that I'll buy a 320d next time I change but in the meantime I'll incur the extra costs associated with choices I made years ago (or I'll be limited in the choices I can make to reduce those costs because I buy secondhand cars rather than new.

There is a danger too that the changes can distort the market in the short term too while everyone goes out to buy new 320d's (and by the laws of supply and demand, prices can be expected to be high) and they can't give away their old petrol engined cars because they are now considered socially, and financially, unacceptable.

Dergside wrote: Redbag, you are right in so far as a brand new 520d has a rating of 136 and 149 as you mentioned, but when first introduced in 2005 I understand that the figures were 158 and 185 (manual and auto) putting the manual in the 24% category and the auto in the 28% category.

Crap, I was hoping on bringing in a 520d as the family transport next year, so the 06 model still has the higher emissions.. that new engine only came in on Sep 07.... Good spot Dergside... can see a few ppl getting caught with that one...

redbag wrote: .. can see a few ppl getting caught with that one...

Exactly one of the points I was getting at.  There will be anomolies when a system like this changes.  The thing is to try and be on the right side of them!

This is all very sound advice.

Unforteunately this wont be the end to this story. The gov is strapped for cash and while I understand that people dont wanna look to closely what the future holds the following aplies.

• The government doesn't give a toss about the climate. Neither do the other governments. They need money to function, and this money comes from tax intake. (mainly) They will maintain the income regardless what they have to do to get it.
• The housing market and the economy will not crash but they wont come up in a miracolous way either. There are some very tough years ahead for the people in this country as the dollar will fall further (up to 2€ to 1$) as the us fecked their economy and missed the change in the rest of the world. Credits will get more expensive regardless of the interrest rate development as it gets more difficult for banks to get credits themselves. Hence higher rates. So there will be a "loss" of income for the gov.
• Years ago diesel got substituted and everyone went for it as the fuel; was cheaper and so on. When short for cash this was quickly changed and now the price is even higher sometimes even so diesel is cheaper on the international market then petrol. Looks to m that a repeat is iminent again as on the continent there is some considerable worry about the fine dust and sooth particles emitted from diesel cars and, funny enough, woodchip burning stoves. This gets so bad that in germany france and italy there will be zones in cities where only cars are allowed in who have the newest of diesel particle filtration. And while the european bmws might have a diesel cat the uk/ireland cars dont have the particle filters. So there will be another chance to milk the car owners.

I'm getting very dismayed of the greens and the whole "green agenda" which is sold to us. This is just another cash cow and seeing that the gov is in desperate need for cash Gormlessly will get it his way and than gets the boot. Same as with fat marry in the health system. We the consumers are left in the cold till we stand up for ourselves and make politicians accountable.

Motor Tax rates for New and imported cars registered in Ireland as of July 1 2008

Motor tax rates will be graduated as one moves up the CO2 bands.

• Band A (under 120 grams per km) - €100.
• Band B (121-140 grams perkm) - €150.
• Band C (141-155 grams per km) - € 290.
• Band D (156-170 grams per km) - €430.
• Band E (171-190 grams per km) -€ 600.
• Band F (191-225 grams per km) - €1,000.
• Band G, the top band -€2,000, reflecting CO2 emissions of over 225grams per km.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1206/breaking8.htm - http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1206/breaking 8.htm

So a brand new 520d as mentioned above will incur annual road tax of only €150 from Jul '08 ? Not a bad deal.

Like others I too would like to know where I stand with my E34 with no CO2 emmsions data available......

Don520 wrote: And what about drivers of low emisions cars registered already, my wifes pays Û313 for her 1.5DCI, if she bought it in July she would pay Û150...

Thats where the system is totally flawed, he gap is even bigger on say a 320D. Under the current system its about 500 odd for a 2.0L engine. Under the new system its 150 to tax a 320D from July on.

BM Fan wrote: ....but what else can we do.  Immigrate???

Nah.... that wouldn't work, we're already here......  ! 

(sorry Martin.... me being a smartass, I know what you meant!)

BM Fan wrote: What about a fleet of these - 24k in Oz, 6.0L V8, 360 HP - few bags of cement in teh rear for track days and. Import for mid 30k inc VAt, claim it back, Annual road Tax €277.00  Could be a business here.

Now that's a constructive idea!  Mightn't be what the Greens had in mind as the way forward but falls neatly within the rules!!

It would be much easier too bringing all our gear to the recycling centre......

What does this mean for the M drivers ? Are M cars gonna retain more value after the VRT rule comes in?

I mean importing a E36/46 M3 from July 2008 will be more expensive right?

You can bet the OMSP on cars will be a joke from now until then!

I though road tax was just going up 11% on the high emission cars? 3.0 cars going from €1300 up 11%? that’s not 2k??

the swiss drive on the right but they are 10% below the eu average when it comes to buying cars. just look at the eu pic on this site and you can see hows its spread at the minute or untill next year anyway.

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10005755.shtml - http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_ 10005755.shtml

diesel is spreading.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2007_fcvt_fotw481.html - http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2007_fcvt _fotw481.html

I reckon the annual 2K road tax bill on M cars will hit second hand values quite a bit on the older models especially. It’s unlikely this will be reflected in the OMSP value they give them when paying VRT.

Actually, the more I look at this the more knock on effects that I can see. The arse is going to fall out of the 2 litre+ petrol market and as already suggested there will be a huge increase in new diesel cars bought in the large family type car sector. Anomolys like a Mazda RX8 which up to now had been paying €484 (classed by revenue as a 1.8 for VRT/tax purposes) is now going to jump to the top €2000 tax and VRT rate essentially killing it off in this country...... 

The turbo jap nutter fraternity looks like they will be nailed hardest with Evo's and Scooby Turbo's now all in the €2k tax bracket....

Ballcock wrote: The turbo jap nutter fraternity looks like they will be nailed hardest with Evo's and Scooby Turbo's now all in the €2k tax bracket....

That's if the reg them next year with the new system. If I was to reg the wife's 2.8td showgun according to the new system with a 342 g/km output it will cost €2000. Now that is a big jump. There goes the resale value.

The current price for tax is €1033 with the new 11% increase this brings it up to €1146 an increase of €113 you can see where they are meeting the shortfall with the government coppers. The try to squeeze every penny out of us they can. At least Dick Turpin wore a mask, the milllions they spent on tribunal's ugh dont get me started

My gut feeling is that in a few budgets time the carbon emission tax system will start dropping onto cars registered in Ireland before July 2008. They would probably do a staggered approach like when they introduced the NCT...  killing off motors older than 1994/96...

Carbon policys like this are going to come into Ireland like the fog. It's just a matter of time before it hits the pre July 2008 stuff...

kbannon wrote: Tom, I'm actually surprised that they didn't bring it in with the current budget.

Outrage perhaps ?? not giving people the chance to change their 'diry car' for a cleaner newer one... you never know the goverment might even re-introduce a 2k scrappage scheme against a new car.. Either way im going to be hit big time, the 30+y/o classics should be fine but the prospect of taxing the e28 and e34 at 2K each isn't something I'm warming too.... I

Looks like the SIMI pre budget plan was almost a reality..

well I'm taking the 2002 off the road next year for a full rebuild and considering the way things are going I might just bring her back as a daily driver in order to replace the e34

Here's a sample of cars in Band F (€1k car tax) and Band G (€2k car tax) that I very much doubt we will see too many of after July '08.

Alfa 147 1.6: Band F
Alfa 147 2.0: Band F
Alfa 159 2.2JTS: Band F
Alfa Brera 2.2JTS: Band F
Audi A4 1.8T: Band F
Chrysler 300C <all>: Band G
Ford S-Max 2.0i: Band F
Ford Focus ST: Band F
Honda S2000: Band G
Honda Civic Type-R: Band F
Land Rover <all>: Band F + G
Lexus IS250: Band G
Lotus Elise: Band F
Mazda RX-8: Band G
Mercedes E200K: Band F
Subaru Forester: Band F + G
Subaru Impreza WRX: Band G

And as if Alfa's wernt hard enough to justify ownership...

Mick

I'd say Fiat Ireland are going to be scratching their heads over this one..

Just on the theory of the rates converging in subsequent budgets my wifes ever frugal 1996 Peug 106 1.1 goes into band D at  €430, up from €251. Its a nasty jump and looking through Parkers website most CO emissions can be found on cars from 1998 onwards. Going to send an email to Mr.Gormley and see if he's going to follow suit.......

Here is something else that is hidden in the "small print".

For those of you running company cars there will be significant changes to the way that the costs of these can be offset. I understand that any car with an emission rating of 190g/km or higher will not qualify for any tax offset at all. Only cars with a rating of below 155g/km will qualify for full tax offset releif while those in the 155 - 190 range will only qualify for 50% of the full releif.

This will put a damper on company owners/directors running nice cars and will mean that all "company cars" will now have to fall under the 155g/km limit in order to be tax efficient.

Don't forget that the gormless one has also promised to introduce a new "carbon tax" next year, based on "the polluter pays" principle, which will undoubtedly mean higher prices at the pumps.

Enjoy it while you can !

OK, OK its unanimous; the government are ripping us off big time and it looks like its going to get worse

 note books and pens at the ready (see below) he he he....

http://www.wikihow.com/Start-a-Revolution - http://www.wikihow.com/Start-a-Revolution

KB for commander / general

lesurely wrote: the government are ripping us off big time and it looks like its going to get worse

That is true, but the key thing here is that in times of significant change such as these changes to the VRT system, there are ALWAYS opportunities. 

Dig for the anomolies and use them before the Revenue spot them (and close them) and you can find a (relative) bargain.....

Dergside wrote:   Dig for the anomolies and use them before the Revenue spot them (and close them) and you can find a (relative) bargain.....

Hmmmmmm   tell me more...... 

lesurelyHmmmmmm   tell me more......  [/QUOTE wrote: There are always oddities, for example, VRT on a '99 328Ci is less than on an e36

There are always oddities, for example,

• VRT on a '99 328Ci is less than on an e36 328i Sport
• a '01 520iSE is only euro30 less than a 530iSE
• a '02 325iSE is nearly euro200 less than a 320iSE
• a '00 530iSE is nearly euro600 less than a '00 528iSE
• a '03 330Ci is nearly euro2000 less than a 330Ci SE although the specs are identical.
• All figures assume same age and mileage and all cars are manual.

Dergside a '03 330Ci is nearly euro2000 less than a 330Ci SE although the specs are identical. All figures assume same age and mileage and all cars are manual. [/QUOTE wrote: I like this one. Not that I would buy one now with the new rules. Methinks the days of big engined petrol cruisers a

I like this one. Not that I would buy one now with the new rules. Methinks the days of big engined petrol cruisers are coming to an end in this country.

The blue bullet wrote: Methinks the days of big engined petrol cruisers are coming to an end in this country.

They may reduce, but not gone.  Therein lies the potential opportunities going forward (all the figures mentioned are under the current regime).

The new VRT rate for an e46 330Ci will be 32% and a 330Cd will be 28%, so the laws of supply and demand should mean that demand for 330Cd's increases and thus prices (OMSP) rise.  Similarly demand, and thus prices, for 330Ci should fall.  This is likely to at least offset, if not exceed, the differential created by changing the rates.

Regarding road tax - on cars imported after July next, road tax on a 330Ci will DROP from the euro1300 or so that it is today to euro1000 while it will drop from euro1300 to euro600 on the 330Cd.

I'm just using that as the example - if you think hard you'll come up with more yourself.

Dergside wrote: Regarding road tax - on cars imported after July next, road tax on a 330Ci will DROP from the euro1300 or so that it is today to euro1000 while it will drop from euro1300 to euro600 on the 330Cd.

Being pedantic, a 3 litre unit (once under 3,000cc's) is currently taxed @ €1,109.

The upcoming 11% increase will bring this up to €1,231.

Ballcock wrote: Being pedantic, a 3 litre unit (once under 3,000cc's) is currently taxed @ €1,109. The upcoming 11% increase will bring this up to €1,231.

No problem, the world needs pedants too! 

You are absolutely right, I have always been afraid to look at the road tax bill for my 330 so I had the over 3.0l figure in my mind.  On the one hand it obviously hasn't been costing me quite as much as I thought (WoooHooo!) but also that I will save less than I thought if bring one in in future (Boooohooo!).