I didnt saw any topic about breaking law here, so presume this is not accepted to promote illegal activities- of course I dont want to break a law.

Lets make it clear. Im not Irish and dont know many laws/things- thats why Im here to ask. With full respect.

1) I see many cars with UK plates here in Ireland. All these guys "drive to work" every day from Nothern Ireland and are like tourists or visitors?

2) In NCT test centre- does they check engine and body numbers matching numbers in car document? For example if I swap engine for bigger engine.

3) If I import carparts or car without engine or engine does I have to pay VRT? For example- I take car into parts in NI- import all parts to ROI and then I "build" car in ROI... Still have to pay? Car wreck? If body is wreck and engine is OK. Car comes into ROI and price to calculate VRT is low and then I pay lower tax and later I move these documents and new plates to the  "freshly built" car I made from imported parts. You know what I mean...

4) Inside European Union this type of import tax is illegal and irish people are robbed in the bright daylight. Somebody does something about it? Is there any interest group I can support? All goods must move free inside the EU, and its matter of time when this type of tax will be removed. I want to speed it up.

5) Why Road Tax calculations are based on the CO2 emission or engine size? There is no global warming! It was false alarm. http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=JZBP-JYzQKg - http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=JZBP-JYzQKg  Or you can find more facts from universities around the world or from internet. Anyway- CO2 is not reason of warming but result. Last 2 - 3 years planet is cooling and CO2 will drop. Why we have to pay these idiotic charges? Is there any group who is fighting against this tax abuse?

Thanks guys and dont let them rob your hard earned money!

Just sad is to see nice powerful cars off the road becouse of this tax abuse.

You have to fight to your right to drive M5!

Thanks for answer! 

Of course I dont want to break the law or you do it. But there must be some shortcuts in the law. They cant write all the cases in the law. So please follow the law- but use your brains to make your life easier..

1) I know this sounds like Micheal Jackson, but what I really dont want molest german engineers piece of art. I know classic cars are more tax friendly. If I buy old car and I need to change couple of parts... or little bit more    

NCT dont want to see my car and can I lift classic bodypanels/roof/windows/all external parts to 90s car with ZV plates. Is it still classic? NCT is not required and I need to change unsafe and old parts. How many parts I can change to be still classic?

I dont want to break the law Im just interested making wolf in sheep skin. Its obvious, that all parts cant last 30 years and still be safe and road legal.  Or is it main target to convince Garda patrol that car is qualified as classic and some parts are changed...

Probably there is many classics in Ireland with 90% of parts changed.

I dont want to be smartass, but I remember the M50 wasnt goverment property. It belonged to some private company who built it. Maybe goverment bought it already but question is... if garda stops me in M50 he cant fine me driving without NCT?   Ok ok

2) Back to the serious topic. E36 318 or 320. Have anybody experiences with fitted turbo kit and VRT? Engine size remains unchanged and what about tax? Do they tax me then based on CO2 emission?

If measured CO2 is lower than pre turbo - does I pay lower tax then? As a welder I can build "magic exhaust pipe" and reduce CO2 emission.

3)Insurance of modified car with fitted turbo? Overtaking and other dangerous activities are takeing shorter distance and shorter time- so more powerful cars are safer. Insurance rate is going to drop or rise after turbo? How much or is cheaper to buy and insure biggest stock engine?

Thanks again!

Maniac wrote: NCT dont want to see my car and can I lift classic bodypanels/roof/windows/all external parts to 90s car with ZV plates. Is it still classic? NCT is not required and I need to change unsafe and old parts. How many parts I can change to be still classic?

Maniac wrote: I dont want to be smartass, but I remember the M50 wasnt goverment property. It belonged to some private company who built it. Maybe goverment bought it already but question is... if garda stops me in M50 he cant fine me driving without NCT?   Ok ok

Maniac wrote: 2) Back to the serious topic. E36 318 or 320. Have anybody experiences with fitted turbo kit and VRT? Engine size remains unchanged and what about tax? Do they tax me then based on CO2 emission? If measured CO2 is lower than pre turbo - does I pay lower tax then? As a welder I can build "magic exhaust pipe" and reduce CO2 emission.

If you are struggling to cope with the costs of registering or taxing a car then you'll die when you have to start maintaining it, especially if its a powerful M3/M5 engine.

Maniac wrote: 3)Insurance of modified car with fitted turbo? Overtaking and other dangerous activities are takeing shorter distance and shorter time- so more powerful cars are safer. Insurance rate is going to drop or rise after turbo? How much or is cheaper to buy and insure biggest stock engine?

Ring AXA or any insurance company and say that bit about shorter overtking to them. Tell us what they say after they stop laughing at you!

By and large, any performance modifications will require independent assessment for roadworthiness and will probably incur a premium rise!

fitting turbo does not change then my Road Tax?

I have evil smile in my face

Of course Im aware about cost for good maintenance.

But I just not used to pay crazy 2000 - 3000 euros extra to just keep car on the road.

Men I HAVE A DREAM!

I have a dream when all clubmembers can drive their dreamcar.

I have a dream that their families and hobby dont suffer becouse of greedy goverment.

I have a dream......

I just cant understand! Back home I can afford new leasing car with full insurance, but here I have to go way too low with standards to feed some fat cats. Im not working to feed them!

I just want YOU guys see this time in your life as well. Its all about quality and power! Older models they lack of quality and power...   Its my opinion.

Be honest- hands up who will upgrade your car for bigger engine BMW if there is no VRT from tomorrow?

Maintenance and fuel is nonsence if you compare salaries! My biggest problem is overcome this mental protest against taxes.

Or - Im going to outlaw class ;)     Much easier

I know - im maniac

Maniac wrote: NCT dont want to see my car and can I lift classic bodypanels/roof/windows/all external parts to 90s car with ZV plates. Is it still classic?

You cannot have a ZV plate on a '90's car.  Its only available (at an additional cost) when registering a car that is older than 30 years from the time of first registration.

The VRT people will not allow you to declare a car that is not fit for use on Irish roads.  If it is not fit for use then road safety laws disallow its use and you will be expected to bring the car up to a standard of roadworthiness and resubmit it for VRT.  Aftermarket mods such as turbo's in theory could increase the amount of VRT charged if it is deemed to increase the Open Market Selling Price of the car.  In reality most VRT office staff wouldn't recognize an aftermarket mod such as this if it bit them on the ass, let alone put a value on it.

You seem determined to find a loophole in the VRT system and the best you will find is an anomoly such as the fact that VRT on a '99 328i coupe is more than a similar age and mileage 328Ci.  They've had 15 years of running the VRT system to make sure that there's unlikely to be a stroke you can try to pull that they haven't seen before.

So, in summary, VRT is a pita but its the only legal game in town.  Avoiding it might work for a while but they have the ultimate sanction of having the power to take your car and leave the burden of proof on you to explain why the rules don't apply to you.

Similarly with insurance, try and play the system and you'll find that at the very time you need the cover, after something happens, they'll be more than pleased to find a way out of paying your claim.

4) Inside European Union this type of import tax is illegal and irish people are robbed in the bright daylight. Somebody does something about it? Is there any interest group I can support? All goods must move free inside the EU, and its matter of time when this type of tax will be removed. I want to speed it up.

IMO, this country is one of the worst places in the western world to live if you're into cars. This VRT crap has car prices at ridiculous levels. €98,950 for a used M3??? Go across the pond and get one for half that. Simply f*&%ing absurd. Then you have absurd insurance rates and the road tax that adds insult to injury, considering the state of the roads.   

Re: your question about the turbo, it won't affect your road tax rates. My 318ti was FI'd and I still paid the same 1.8L rate.

Its very easy to go outlaw class. There is many good loopholes to cover scammers...

Its just unbelievable that NCT guys usually dont check body and engine number matching in the book. Ok maybe they check ...

But I do not want break the law - I want smooth ride and smooth taxes.

1)Do anybody knows whats the story with UK/NI rental cars. If im renting from UK/NI and having "longer trip" in Ireland. Does I have to pay VRT or rental company if Im stay longer than week/month/decade

Of course all UK/NI taxes are paid in full.Does Garda will impound rental cars?

And if Im not the person who rented- changing rental contract is just "copy paste job" and can be changed daily basis. Of course there is even more tax friendly countries to register a car rental company.

2) About classics... If I import E9 CSL coupe wreck from Deutschland and want to restore it using e30 or e36 parts. How many parts I can change to still be classic e9 and not e30/e36.  Logical that body should be from e9. But if I change engine to new e30/e36 engine? Or I got my ZV plates and now its my own business how I modify my classic? Is there any standards?

This topic is killing my head last 2 weeks...  I already invented Phantom cars, but its too early to talk about.

Me thinks your pigeon english is a little too pigeon to be pigeon if ya get my meanin.

Where you from maniac?

G.T. wrote: 4) Inside European Union this type of import tax is illegal and irish people are robbed in the bright daylight. Somebody does something about it? Is there any interest group I can support? All goods must move free inside the EU, and its matter of time when this type of tax will be removed. I want to speed it up. IMO, this country is one of the worst places in the western world to live if you're into cars. This VRT crap has car prices at ridiculous levels. €98,950 for a used M3??? Go across the pond and get one for half that. Simply f*&%ing absurd. Then you have absurd insurance rates and the road tax that adds insult to injury, considering the state of the roads.    Re: your question about the turbo, it won't affect your road tax rates. My 318ti was FI'd and I still paid the same 1.8L rate.

I completely agree, I don't know why we tollerate it, it's only this way because people keep paying. 

Beemerboy wrote: I completely agree, I don't know why we tollerate it, it's only this way because people keep paying.

That almost makes it sound optional! 

I wish it were optional! At least Ireland isn't as bad as Hong Kong.

Kidding aside, I just don't see how this whole VRT thing is still in place. If I'm not mistaken, Ireland is the only country in the EU that still "penalizes" car guys with VRT (at these rates, at least). I remember reading something to the effect that while the rest of the EU did away with the VRT, I think Ireland just changed what they called the tax and kept charging away. I'm not 100% accurate on that, BTW...but I'll keep yapping because this is a sore subject for me.

To use the used M3 as an example, if BMW can build the car, ship it to the US, sell it for approximately half of what they go for here and still make a profit, tell me where the hell the other €49k is going if I buy one here at Irish market prices??? Mother f*&%ers!!!

The thing is that the powers that be aren't even taking me out to dinner and buying me flowers before they screw me. I say that if they f*&k you, f*&k them right back. If you find a loophole, take advantage of it. It probably won't remain in place for long anyway, if there is such a thing. The greedy f*&ks won't allow it...

Hi again!

Im ready to start a little war in Africa to overtake power in some small country- its all only just to get diplomatic immunity in Ireland

But probably they tax even foreign diplomats :D Anyway-all this topic sounds like good businessplan. Just book hour or two with lawyer and shoot him with all crazy ideas.  Find a loophole and make it bigger - make money out of it. Lets take NI or UK car rental companies. They can enter to ROI and stay here couple of days or little longer. Goverment cant block rental cars coming in or decide who is driving.

If they start to... probably ice starts to melt and many people will be annoyed and start campaign in EU to change this.

If rental cars are ok here then why not to register car rental company in some "tax paradise" and then start to rent out cars to Irish people. Condition are - minimum rental term is 1000 years and you have to pay full car price straight a way. And point in the contract- you have total right to sell your rental car and company dont have any claim power against you :D

OK - have to run now- i ll be back...

Maniac wrote: If rental cars are ok here then why not to register car rental company in some "tax paradise" and then start to rent out cars to Irish people. Condition are - minimum rental term is 1000 years and you have to pay full car price straight a way. And point in the contract- you have total right to sell your rental car and company dont have any claim power against you :D

Funnily enough, there is a bit of a loophole for rental companies, and has been for years.  The problem is that a rental is defined and if the rental contract doesn't match the definition then its not regarded as a short term rental and therefore the provision doesn't apply.

The "rental" you've described doesn't qualify as a short term rental afaik!

If you want to avoid VRT, buy a van.

Thanks guys to keep on thinking... Please dont surrender! There must be solution!!! We`ll keep up the fight!

Do BMW make any van???  

:)))) Im cut my own hand, but I refuse to molest X5 as van.

And X is out of my budget anyway.

1989 520 asked where im from :D  Lets say- eastern europe. Just in case if I become too interesting for revenue or boys in blue. I know what you think .   We are there psychotic drivers and like to drive while under heavy influence of vodka :))))

Personally I drink once or twice per year, but on the roads... sorry I have bad habits . But im not self destructive and i dont disturb other drivers - I keep on my own line- you guys call it "hard sholder"? And you have it sooooo wide- we have it max 1 meter and have to go half offroad. But good thing is... adrenaline rush.

Just kidding :)

Back to the topic. I plan to buy BMW and not decided yet- from where Im going to buy it. NI/UK prices are more attractive but this registration tax is just not accepted.

Road tax- ok I can handle this- most of the countries use fuel tax to cover expenses, but in Ireland they need extra? Same story with TV license- channel is selling commercials as competitors and getting money from sponsors (tv licence owners). Frustrating!

Its more mental than financial issue. If you tax bigger than 3 litre engine then it becomes health issue when you get a heart attack. Main problem is- back home we dont call cars BMW if they have smaller engine than 2L. You can disagree, but I freak out about idea of having 1.6 or 1.8

Seems I have to go official and make some masterplan and start surfing and calling to the insurance companies and revenue. 1.6 is not a solution!

Friend of mine came with 2007 5 series and he didnt had any glue about taxing and Garda took his car for 2 months... and released after enormous bills...   I dont want to get this experience.

Im not comfortable with the arrangements in the Irish Republic regarding VRT. I complain like everybody else, but in the end I put up with it. We live here, We work here, We pay our taxes here. We voted in our government here. If we have no work here as happened in the 80s we will emigrate to find work as many are doing again right now. When we work and live abroad we will abide by the laws with respect to motoring in our adopted country. I dont like to see right hand drive cars on our roads that were originally on Irish plates being fitted with foreign plates and driven around with windscreen decorations applicable to the country from where the plates originated. I have seen 3 such vehicles in car parks in the Limerick area over the last 3 months. Imagine an Irish citizen trying a stunt like that in mainland western Europe on a locally sourced left hand drive car and fitting Irish plates on it together with the appropiate Irish windscreen decorations. The minister for foreign affairs would need to be quickly involved in interceding on the Irish citizen's behalf.   

Alright- I agree with you.

LHD cars are just dangerous here and RHD dangerous in Europe mainland. And your negative reactions to fancy windscreen decorations are understandable- it is small nations way to survive. Belive me- smaller the country and smaller their tolerance.

Im from smaller country than Ireland and I understand and feel your pain. But in changing world we all in EU now. Its like USA- at least idea. We all EU citizens and its just melting process right now.

How to you feel when you see locals driving around with UK/NI plates?

But you certainly know many or even majority of Irish citizen are not happy with some taxes.

Where is your patriotism limit? are you always patriot? If Road Tax or PRSI doubled or three or ten times higher? Are you still in same opinion, that you are living here and should be happy with all taxes they ask? I dont think so. Too many people feel that they are ripped off right now- and thats why this topic is here.

Peace!  

Republic of Ireland has one of the lowest personal tax rates in western Europe. This has been the priority of sucessive governments here for quite a while now. We marched in protest at high personal taxes through the streets of our cities in the 80s. Politicians listened to the people and as a result the personal tax take (as a percentage)from our wages gradually reduced. This policy has been sucessfull in the creation of  conditions that have stimulated growth in employment. The more recent policy of creating a minimum hourly wage rate has also helped to get people whom might otherwise be happy to live on the social welfare allowances to take up the offer of employment.

Our government must get the taxes in from the public by some other means. High VAT rates is an example. VRT is an other example. High PRSI rates on personal income is an other example. We have a choice in the decision we make regarding the size, engine size, age, petrol or diesel of the car we wish to drive. If we cant afford to run an M5, then we scale back on our purchase.  

Locals driving around in foreign registered cars here come to the attention of Customs and Exise rather quickly here especially the further south you live in the Irish Republic.

With respect to being patriotic, I lived and drove cars when the annual car tax was only £10 per year back in the 80s. This did not last long im afraid. They quickly brought it ten times higher. I didnt loose my patriotism because of this massive increase in annual car tax then. Lets hope that annual car tax will not be doubled or tribled in the future. If it does I will still be patriotic and maybe drive one of the smaller engined beemers that BMW have already designed, only to start building them when the market conditions create the demand.   

Seeing that second hand E60s with large capacity engines are hard to shift off the forecourts at the moment lets go one better. Stick a spanking brand new VAG 1.4 liter high performance petrol engine under the bonnet. They can be tuned to develop as much power and torque as the E39 528 engine. Half the engine size and as good to go. Now your sucking diesel - sorry petrol. 

The VW TSI were a great solution to the old VRT regime, but unfortunately doesn't work so well for CO2.  A new 320i produces the same bhp as the top end new Golf TSI 170 but has much lower emissions.  20% VRT category for the 320i, 28% for the Golf.

Go figure!

Many thanks for the info regarding CO2 emissions Dergside. I have been told by customs that fitting a new engine in a pre Jan 2008 registered car will not qualify the car for the new CO2 emission regulations regarding car tax. They said that the car will be liable for annual road tax based on the cubic capacity of the engine. I am referring to original Irish second hand cars that are sitting in dealer's yards. An example would be a typical E60 525 plated 04 or 05 or even an E39 525 plated 00 to 04. They aint movin like they used to. Diesel conversions were all the rage in the late 80s and early 90s for large cars. Large older cars were attractive then, and their higher running costs could be reduced with a diesel conversion.  Im wondering has the time now come for some enterprising engineering firm to consider offering a smaller cubic capacity high powered petrol engine conversion kit for similar large cars that are still desirable by many today. I remember a time when there were a total of 38 conversion kits available for the range rover. Most of these kits were diesel conversions, but some were petrol engine kits of smaller capacity. Example: Out with the rover V8 and in with a ford V6.    

I just dont get it.

Its nice to promote home garage engineering, but I think BMW engineers are little bit more professional with this. And dont forget millions spent to make something perfect.

Installing weak  engine just sounds so WRONG...

Sorry to sound uneducated, but I discovered now there is different BMW engines in USA and Europe. And only becouse of fuel difference?!?! All the US imports must modify to accept european fuel? Or they just perform better becouse of stronger petrol? 

Deeem... its 1 am... tomorrow is big day... Im going to buy road legal plane ;)     Nervous here... looking for nice rides and making shopping list... my baby... And this baby have heart of rocket!

You know this feeling... i cant sleep tonight

Mike Ryan wrote: . Example: Out with the rover V8 and in with a ford V6.

As for VAT/Duty Just imported a front panel and wing for a 1970s Neue Klasse this week from the US with 21.5% import duty plus quoted taric of 3% (I was lucky) it automatically adds 1/4 to the items price. Guess you just have to bear it...

[QUOTE=CurleyKilian is right registeration follows the chassis and that why you see the occasional classic shape 4 door v8 range rover on a ZV or equivalent irish 30y/o plate.]

A little o/t but the Range Rover thing has always facinated me.  There are a good number of 4 door RR Classics in the country that appear to have reg numbers that significantly pre-date the official introduction of the 4 door (iirc, somewhere around 1982). 

Some of the ones I've seen have the "look" of later '80's and '90's models.  I know that Sbarro in Switzerland did some 4 door conversions on these before the factory model appeared (and I may be wrong, but think that there was a connection between their design and the official 4 door). 

I'm guessing that the numbers of Sbarro cars is relatively small and its doubtful that so many of them have ended up in this country.

So, what's the explanation?  Anyone know?

Simple, separate chassis on the range rover classic (RR up to '93, 4dr came in AFAIK in 1982) so effectivly people rebody using a tax exempt chassis/book and putting a body off a newer RR onto it. I've seen quite a few RR on this system and it's legit. Nearly purchased a 93 v8 vogue earlier this year on an 75 IF reg. with the work done in the UK, It had corresponding choachbuilders plates old and new vins, paperwork etc

The issue is how many RR chassis were honestly rebodied and not just a plate and VIN number cut out of the exempt chassis. all other separate chassis bodied vehicles all go under the same rule in Ireland simple example is an old beetle where one could buy a mint uk one, drop it on an irish chassis and hey presto you've an mint 'irish' beetle with an irish reg... 

QUOTE=CurleyKilian is right registeration follows the chassis and that why you see the occasional classic shape 4 door v8 range rover on a ZV or equivalent irish 30y/o plate.]

A company in the UK offered a conversion to owners of older range rovers. You exported your over 30 year old range rover to the UK and delivered it to their premises. You let customs here in Ireland know of your intensions in advance and showed them the gleaming new body on the refurbished galvanised chassis on return. This company ( I would need to check in past copies of Off Road and Four Wheel Drive Magazine, have all issues back to 1984) gave you a choice of either a new landrover discovery body either 2 or 4 door, with everything new except the chassis that left Ireland.  The other much more expensive choice was to continue and leave it range rover but use the 4 door body.

There are many examples of both of these conversions running around on original Irish plates. It was also possible to bring one in, as an import - hence the ZV plates. I spent a lot of my time in the 80s converting range rovers to diesel. Converted many of them using tried  and trusted engines from elsewhere. Then along came Toyota, Nissan etc. and that put an end to my diesel conversions.

Maybe I might be in business again. Check out

www.knackerednavara.co.uk    

Seemingly a company in Wicklow offered the exact same thing with new bodies on old chassis, off-hand I know 3 fellas with 4 door v8 Rovers on the exempt system. With UK rolling tax system stuck on Jan 73, Irish lads are buying up 73 to 78 Land rovers in the UK just for the chassis and book. You never know you might be back in business again...

EDIT : Sweet mother of God, looked at the link so thats why the Navara's are getting thin on the ground !!!??!

Ben O Brien wrote: There is a lad local to me with a 75 RR Chassis and an early 90's Vogue body dropped on with leather, electric everything and a 4.0 Toyota Landcruiser Diesel engine, best of every world.

The thinking mans 4x4 !!!! Vogue is a very nice place to be and they look the business

Mike Ryan wrote: ( I would need to check in past copies of Off Road and Four Wheel Drive Magazine, have all issues back to 1984)

Wow.....!  Now that is serious and dedicated petrol head stuff there!

Dergside Wrote: Wow.....!  Now that is serious and dedicated petrol head stuff there!

Im more into High Cetane Rating and Low Sulphur Content between 9 to 5 for about 32 weeks of the year. After 5 and for for the other 20 weeks of the year im into High Octane Rating and Double Vanus. Its not all that hard to figure out what im at. Im not telling though.