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E36 Springs and Dampers

Printed From: Bavarian-Board.co.uk - BMW Owners Discussion Forum
Category: Technical & Model Specific Forums
Forum Name: BMW 3 Series
Forum Discription: This forum will deal with any issues on the BMW 3 Series (E21, E30, E36, E46, E90, E91 & E92)
URL: http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=43615
Printed Date: 29-April-2024 at 04:13


Topic: E36 Springs and Dampers
Posted By: jimf671
Subject: E36 Springs and Dampers
Date Posted: 08-January-2009 at 13:55
I am starting to work on the set-up of my E36 318. I am not a power-monger. I usually mod every car I own but its always suspension and brakes. Lowered set-ups are no use to me.

Can anyone direct me to a comprehensive set of info about springs and dampers?

I am surprised there is not clearer information on any forums, here or elsewhere, about the various standard set-ups, spring dimensions, damper setting, bushes, strut spacers and so on.

(Anyone got a set of 320 or 323 E36 front springs lying around? Standard or M.)


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JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"



Replies:
Posted By: ally
Date Posted: 08-January-2009 at 21:47

There isn't that muich to know about e36 standard suspension, there are no "various standard set ups" to my knowledge, other than the E36 coupes are all 10mm lower than the 4 doors, as standard.

For more info on part numbers etc, try http://www.realoem.com - www.realoem.com

HTH



-------------
E39 530i Sport Aegean Blue Edition
Saab 9-5T SE Estate
E36 318i loon...sold
E36 323i coupe...sold



Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 09-January-2009 at 13:14
Not much to know?

What are the spring dimensions?

What are the standard ride height measurements?

Anyone got damper settings? Tests graphs?

I really don't like working in the dark.

Maybe naive of me but I did think that considering the popularity of these cars, somebody somewhere would have gathered together this kind of info by now.



-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: Webdunk
Date Posted: 09-January-2009 at 14:02
TBH I've never heard of an amateur / enthusiast modder working at that level of detail. What kind of work have you done to your cars in the past?

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Posted By: MBW1
Date Posted: 09-January-2009 at 14:57
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:


Anyone got damper settings? Tests graphs?



Yeah, I'll just go and get them.

Probably the most ridiculous question I've ever heard. It's a 318i, what are
you trying to achieve??

-------------
I don't have a carbon footprint. I drive everywhere.


Posted By: Webdunk
Date Posted: 09-January-2009 at 15:14
Originally posted by MBW1 MBW1 wrote:

Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:


Anyone got damper settings? Tests graphs?



Yeah, I'll just go and get them.

Probably the most ridiculous question I've ever heard. It's a 318i, what are
you trying to achieve??


Don't be rude.

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Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 09-January-2009 at 16:09
Generally, I am a minimalist. However, my view of minimum may be affected by my background: commercial vehicle design engineer, rally mechanic, transport soldier.

If I can get away with a standard damper that is as good or better than a sporty product then I buy the standard one. If I can fit springs from another model from a scrap yard and get good handling and better traction than with an expensive sporty set then the scrappers it will be. Being expensive and yellow is no help in Glen Shiel in a snow storm.

In the past I have cut springs, bent springs and retempered them in a bucket of p1ss, moved suspension mounts, made or modified suspension arms, had springs and dampers built to my own spec, removed anti-roll bars and rebuilt damper valves. Brake fires and tyre fade have been part of my driving experience on the roads of Ross & Cromarty and Inverness. I don't do lowering, or PU bushes, or Rose joints, or coloured calipers, or wide tyres. I do drive through puddles at 160km/h, love hard-pack snow, hate power steering and pull the fuses on the ABS.



(PS: The spring IS the shock absorber.)

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: Webdunk
Date Posted: 09-January-2009 at 16:15
LOL so not an amateur then. I think some E36s were entered in some of the Scottish rallies. Can you get the level of detail you're after through you rally contacts? The BMWCC (should you be / become a member) also have access to a specific motorsport contact who again may have the level of detail you seek.

happy hunting

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Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 09-January-2009 at 17:56
Originally posted by MBW1 MBW1 wrote:

Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:


Anyone got damper settings? Tests graphs?
...
Probably the most ridiculous question I've ever heard. It's a 318i, what are you trying to achieve??


So it's a 318i. It's light (well, compared to a 1665kg E92 M3) and simple and has 85kW, which will get me as fast as I shall want to go. For the worst of conditions on mountain roads the more powerful cars are unmanageable. The 318 was chosen because I couldnt find a decent 316 at the time. My last car was a 316 although that was under warranty and I never got round to fiddling with it.

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: ally
Date Posted: 10-January-2009 at 17:19

Still don't understand, you don't want to lower it, so why do you want know all about spring dimensions? Are you going to try & fit springs from another car, like a subaru or something?

Can you not measure what you have?



-------------
E39 530i Sport Aegean Blue Edition
Saab 9-5T SE Estate
E36 318i loon...sold
E36 323i coupe...sold



Posted By: MBW1
Date Posted: 10-January-2009 at 19:08
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

Originally posted by MBW1 MBW1 wrote:

Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:


Anyone got damper settings? Tests graphs?
...
Probably the most ridiculous question I've ever heard. It's a 318i, what are
you trying to achieve??


So it's a 318i. It's light (well, compared to a 1665kg E92 M3) and simple
and has 85kW, which will get me as fast as I shall want to go. For the
worst of conditions on mountain roads the more powerful cars are
unmanageable. The 318 was chosen because I couldnt find a decent 316
at the time. My last car was a 316 although that was under warranty and I
never got round to fiddling with it.


You are clearly very bored!

What exactly is wrong with the standard set up as designed and
perfected by BMW? I assume you have brand new standard springs,
dampers, balljoints and bushes? You will need them to establish a
starting point from which to effect an 'improvement'. If you don't.............

-------------
I don't have a carbon footprint. I drive everywhere.


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 11-January-2009 at 14:14
Originally posted by MBW1 MBW1 wrote:

What exactly is wrong with the standard set up as designed and perfected by BMW?


Not very much.

My changes will mean that the car will handle wet roads, hump-back bridges and snow better than the standard car.

Originally posted by MBW1 MBW1 wrote:

I assume you have brand new standard springs, dampers, balljoints and bushes? You will need them to establish a starting point from which to effect an 'improvement'. If you don't.............


This is a very good point that you make and one that I constantly find myself making to others!

When I had the last E36 it was very low mileage and in excellent condition, so I know what the basic spec is like in good condition. This car is a bit more worn. I will replace worn components with better ones where possible. This means better for the environment in which the car will be used and not better for roundabouts in Essex or perfect Wurtemberg/Bavarian blacktop.

My first mod was my usual trick: fitted narrower tyres. Let's see if you can work that one out.

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 11-January-2009 at 16:32
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:


My changes will mean that the car will handle wet roads, hump-back bridges and snow better than the standard car.


If you're wanting to take some of the compliance out of the suspension then you should be looking at M3 or poly bushes.

If you are wanting to uprate the springs then you are almost certainly looking at lowered ones. Although the M3's were only 15mm lower than standard most after market ones are at least double that.

By fitting narrower tyres I expect you're trying to reduce grip & improve handling response. I assume you must have read the article (by Autocar I believe) which stated the 6-cylinder E36 handling was duller than the 4-cylinders due to the extra tyre width.

Although the E36 has performed well in certain track disciplines, only the E30 saw service as a rally car (afaik). The E36 design parameters required a substantial increase in weight which didn't really suit rallying.

If you're looking to build a road rally machine then the E30 would be much more suitable as there is a far greater range of mods available.

Still, if you want to continue with the E36 then bear in mind there were differences between the early & late 6-cylinder cars & between the 6 & 4 cylinder models too.

Your best solution would be to go for coil-overs as they give the biggest range of adjustment allowing you to achieve whatever it is you're trying to do.


-------------
AndyS
Live each day as if it's your last - one day it will be.

http://www.photostick.co.uk/view-933_BaurSig1.jpg" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 11-January-2009 at 19:13
Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

... ...

... whatever it is you're trying to do.


The bushes will end up as a mix of standard and M3.

Regarding compliance, it's a word I use often and compliance is not all bad. The general rule is that all standard cars are soggy at the front and, though it's a very fine chassis as standard, the rule still applies here. Since it's got struts, I immediately look at doubling the front spring rate. This will improve camber control, stability under braking and stability on landing. In this case it probably will not be enough to allow me to dump the anti-roll bar. Any resulting degradation of the turn-in response will be dealt with by geometry changes. The relative compliance of the rear improves by stiffening the front and this should give improvements in traction.

I don't see lowering as an option. The rear is low and stiff just now. This has made the Kinlochhourn road a nightmare. Never again. Suspension travel and compliance can be very precious.

I have been fitting narrower tyres to vehicles for 30 years. This means I can drive balls-out in the wet, the improved tyre bracing gives better responsiveness and the money I save through not having to buy wider wheels and tyres can go on good quality malt whisky. Don't even think about following me through puddles. Currently 195 on 7" and very happy with it.

The differences between early and late 6-cylinder cars has been confusing me already. Which had the stiffest suspension? I have been thinking in terms of late 320/323 but I am not sure. Once I find a spring I think I can use, I will run the calculation in my MathCAD file to find the working length in the 318 and the rate. If it's too long, I might have to cut somthing like half a coil off each end, in which case I will check the stresses as well.

Coilovers are a race toy intended for standardising springs in circumstances where rapid and frequent spring changes are necessary. For road cars, they are a means of reducing manufacturing cost, creating a 'race-bred' marketing tool and rippin' the sh1t out of your wallet. The car goes on forest and estate roads and coilovers would be a disaster on those surfaces.

All more A697 than 'coast road'.

Must go: the kitchen is full of brake and suspension parts!!!

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: MBW1
Date Posted: 12-January-2009 at 11:59
You don't need lower or stiffer springs to make an E36 handle better. A
standard 318iS with 205 section tyres is just fine.
I would recommend Bilstein B4 dampers - they're about £150 for four
from Euro Car Parts. The B4 is a standard black gas damper that is
slightly stiffer than the standard Boge and comparable to the M Technic
318iS damper. The difference is, it has a standard length damper rod
whereas the M Technic damper has a shorter one to match the shorter
springs. I would say you need:

-Bilstein B4 shocks
-Four new standard springs
-New rear trailing arm bushes
-E30 front wishbones - solid outer ball joints as opposed to the E36
rubber bushed ones that wear out and give a slightly woolly straight
ahead feel. Same basic arm and a straight swap.
-E30 M3 front wishbone rear offset bushes. These increase the castor
angle making the steering heavier but more responsive.

-318iS anti roll bars. Just to cut the roll a touch without upsetting ride
comfort.

I reckon this will give you a sharper handling car with a good ride and
total practicality with plenty of all important wheel travel

Going narrower than the standard tyre will invalidate your insurance.

-------------
I don't have a carbon footprint. I drive everywhere.


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 12-January-2009 at 13:16
That's sounds good.

Glad to hear good things about the Bilsteins. Do you think a 320/323 front strut would be externally identical with a higher rate?

Standard rear spring almost certainly. Possibly standard 320/323 m-tech front spring.

Good idea with the E30 arms.

Definitely going for the M3 bush on the front arm.

I havent had a serious look at rear bushes yet but I note your recommendation.

The options in the owners manual go one size lower than this. One reason I didnt use a 185 is that nobody would even try to put one on a 7"!!! Probably far too stretched anyway and the tyre's would be like a lifeless brick.

(What I have doone in the past is to submit a modified vehicle report with technical details and appropriate justifications to the insurance company. I have never paid extra. If their people make a disproportionate fuss or are obviously technically incompetent then I just change insurance companies.)

Thanks.

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 22-January-2009 at 13:04
Here is a list of links that might be interesting. Mainly dampers. Many are track stuff but the principle is interesting.

http://www.sachsracing.com/owx_medien/media360/36043.pdf
http://bc.biblos.pk.edu.pl/bc/resources/CT/CzasopismoTechnic zne_6M_2008/DzierzekS/ExtendingPassive/pdf/DzierzekS_Extendi ngPassive.pdf
http://www.optimumg.com/documents/techtips/Springs%20&%20Dam pers_Tech_Tip_4.pdf
http://www.optimumg.com/documents/techtips/
http://www.ohlins.com/Portals/0/documents/manuals/07440-01.p df
http://www.vehicledynamics-expousa.com/08_conf/pdfs/day%201/ 10.40_dzierzek.pdf
http://www.truechoicekoniracingservices.com/2007_TKRS_Catalo g.pdf
http://www.kinetic.au.com/techno.html
http://mgtclass.mgt.unm.edu/Jurkat/Mgt%20532/SuspModel.doc
http://forums.focaljet.com/suspension/426985-bilstein-pss9-d amping-curves-found.html
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4116
http://www.vehicledynamics-expo.com/07vdx_conf/day_3/nowlan. pdf
http://www.koniracing.com/2812.html
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9612_tech/index.html


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JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 24-January-2009 at 17:23
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:


The options in the owners manual go one size lower than this. One reason I didnt use a 185 is that nobody would even try to put one on a 7"!!! Probably far too stretched anyway and the tyre's would be like a lifeless brick.


The 195 & 185(M&S option) were on 6.5" steel rims. The 7x15 alloy wheel option automatically upgraded to 205/60's.

The only time a narrower tyre makes sense is in snow (more than a couple of inches deep). If there'a a lot of standing water a narrower tyre will aquaplane less but since we're only talking 10 or 20mm there won't be much (if anything) in it.

The narrow tyre issue contradicts what you say you're after as the 205 has a lower profile & therefore a stiffer sidewall than the 195 or 185.

You seem to be trying to reduce outright grip in exchange for more adjustable handling? Are you trying to introduce oversteer?

My 328 is on quality 205/60 15's & is fine on all road conditions. Despite what you say about wet roads in Scotlands back-of-beyond, they're no worse than those in the wilds of Northumberland.


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AndyS
Live each day as if it's your last - one day it will be.

http://www.photostick.co.uk/view-933_BaurSig1.jpg" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 28-January-2009 at 13:12
I have been doing this on many cars and for 30 years. The first car I did it on was a Hillman Imp in 1978. Everyone else was going up to 165 or 175 and floating every time it rained (the car was 550kg). With my well-braced 145s, I just kept going and I didnt have to cope with restriction on my steering lock either.

Normally, you get an improvement in handling, a small reduction in dry grip, improvements in wet performance and a wad of cash still in your wallet that you can spend on better dampers, petrol or fine whisky.

There have been times in the past when I have over-done it and had tyre-fade in the summer on long runs in the northwest. Ooops.

195 on 7" is exceptionally well braced. I am still messing about with tyre pressures. Disabling the power steering was on the agenda anyway but there is definitely not a need for assistance with this setup.

I have near enough the same sidewall height as with the original 205/60 except that the geometry is slightly different.

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: W4YNE
Date Posted: 28-January-2009 at 17:49
don't know what you are tryin to do but i have 325 springs and shocks

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fecken fox


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 30-January-2009 at 13:56
Originally posted by W4YNE W4YNE wrote:

don't know what you are tryin to do but i have 325 springs and shocks


Ahah! That is extremely interesting. What model year? What mileage?





[BTW MBW1, I have just ordered M3 offset bushes and E30 control arms.]

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 01-February-2009 at 01:27
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:


195 on 7" is exceptionally well braced.

I have near enough the same sidewall height as with the original 205/60 except that the geometry is slightly different.


It's certainly pushing the fitment boundaries. But why sacrifice 10mm of  tyre width (about 900 sq mm per tyre of footprint) and subsequent grip for a small imperceptible gain in sidewall rigidity?

True, a 195/65 has the same sidewall height as a 205/60 but that's on a 6.5" rim not a 7". Stretching it to a 7" rim is on the limit for no practical gain or are you saying you know more than the tyre manufacturers who suggest this?

I haven't checked all prices but 205/60 x 15 Goodyear Hydragrip's were £60 each. 205/55 x 15's on my E30 were about £5 more. 195/65 x 14's were higher again. No cost saving there.

When BMW wanted to improve things they went for a 235/40 on a 7.5 x 17" rim Later Evo's had a 225/45 on a 7.5" front & 245/40 on an 8.5" rim rear. Obviously totally over the top for a 318.

Still, despite detailing all your frankly oddball ideas & past experiences in cars of compromised design (Hillman Imp ?) and repeatedly ignoring questions about what exactly you're trying to achieve, you still haven't said what it is you intend to do when all this work is done.

Is this a road car or a track car?

Does this car have to meet some obtuse motorsport class specification?

Why else would you try to get the smallest engine size possible & then try to reduce outright grip in an attempt to "improve" handling balance?

If it's a light, agile, somewhat tail-happy sporting saloon you're after, why not go for an E30 or E21. In fact, get a 2002. That has all the qualities you're after & best of all, they're cheap.

The Holy Grail of chassis design and performance modification is to maximise the transfer of power to the road with the maximum efficiency. Too much grip for the power & weight is counter productive as is too little grip.

Frankly is it seems as though you just want to change things for the sake of changing them.


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AndyS
Live each day as if it's your last - one day it will be.

http://www.photostick.co.uk/view-933_BaurSig1.jpg" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 01-February-2009 at 11:05
Wide tyres are for racing cars. On road cars they have a place in countries with perfect paving and blue skies but elsewhere they are as much a marketing exercise as anything else. I'm a truck and rally guy so my understanding of power and traction may be different from that of others.





[Compromised design: that once held every single prod saloon and mod saloon lap record in its class at every UK race circuit as well as being a successful rally car. "Strength of a works Escort and the traction of an Alpine-Renault."]

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JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 01-February-2009 at 21:40
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

Wide tyres are for racing cars. On road cars they have a place in countries with perfect paving and blue skies but elsewhere they are as much a marketing exercise as anything else.

Who's talking wide tyres? It's been more than 20 years since a 205 section tyre was classed as wide.

As for 'perfect paving & blue skies', I guess you havent seen the rest of the UK.

Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

I'm a truck and rally guy so my understanding of power and traction may be different from that of others.

Obviously. A tarmac road is still a tarmac road irrespective of which side of the border it's on. Some are better laid and/or in a better state of repair than others but the same rules of physics apply. More grip is better.

Sure, very low profile tyres don't like potholes but then you don't need them since you're only dealing with 115bhp not 300bhp.

Since you mention rally cars - ever seen a rally car in tarmac trim? Are they on skinny tyres? No. they're lowered, stiffened & with as much wide wheels & rubber as the regs will allow.

Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

[Compromised design: that once held every single prod saloon and mod saloon lap record in its class at every UK race circuit as well as being a successful rally car. "Strength of a works Escort and the traction of an Alpine-Renault."]

The key word here is once & that was a very long time ago. Useless as a road car since it would overheat at every opportunity. Compromised because the chassis design couldn't handle the power of a lawn mower let alone the souped up fire water pump they stuck in it's backside. The Mini may have had a geriatric motor but at least it went round corners rather well (in standard form too).


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AndyS
Live each day as if it's your last - one day it will be.

http://www.photostick.co.uk/view-933_BaurSig1.jpg" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 01-February-2009 at 22:45
Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

... It's been more than 20 years since a 205 section tyre was classed as wide. ...


Physical laws are unaffected by the passage of time, unlike marketing.


Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

ever seen a rally car in tarmac trim?


Not recently, but then there hasn't been much rallying recently. Rallying is when you dont know what's round the next corner: that affects the way the vehicle is set up and what tyres you need.


Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

... it would overheat at every opportunity.


Not with me they didn't. That is because I read the manufacturers instructions and used the correct coolant and the correct fuel instead of the plain water and 2-star that everyone else used. Thirty five and half pence a gallon for 5-star: those were the days.


-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 02-February-2009 at 01:39
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:


Physical laws are unaffected by the passage of time, unlike marketing.

Jim, you seem completely unaware of tyre developments since the 1960's. You are also under the impression that every other development in car design since then is marketing spin. It isn't.

In rallying, drivers have known what was around the next corner since the 60's thanks to co-driver's with O/S maps. This is where you seemed to be firmly stuck with your rose tinted glasses.

There's a huge difference between shoddily designed cars of the 60's and modern machines. You just don't need to rip them apart & modify everything, it will all work out of the box.

Why don't you actually try driving your 318 instead of making oblique references to your engineering skills (such as sawing one coil off your springs ) & knocking BMW design as "marketing".

Since you don't think anything more powerful than a 318 can hack it on Mickey Mouse roads you'll find the cars capabilities in standard form to be well in excess of your needs. After all, the chassis was designed to cope with 200bhp in standard form & over 300bhp with a few tweaks. Almost anything you do to the car will have a negative effect.

Just accept that BMW design engineers know more than you do.

You don't need to change anything & can keep your money for fine scotch or whatever.



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AndyS
Live each day as if it's your last - one day it will be.

http://www.photostick.co.uk/view-933_BaurSig1.jpg" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Peter Fenwick
Date Posted: 02-February-2009 at 10:26

and pull the fuses on the ABS.

Just make sure you don't have a crash that you don't walk away from then. If your insurance company discovered you had done this they would not pay out on your policy. On top of this the Police might be interested in speaking to you



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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 02-February-2009 at 13:15
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

and pull the fuses on the ABS.


Just make sure you don't have a crash that you don't walk away from then. If your insurance company discovered you had done this they would not pay out on your policy. On top of this the Police might be interested in speaking to you



The intention is to submit a modified vehicle report.

It is no secret that some police traffic departments have done the same thing and switched off ABS so I am not expecting trouble from that quarter. Also, a major body of evidence now exists for Risk Homeostasis with ABS, so there is no overall safety advantage.


I respect the truth told to me by a free-rolling wheel connected to my hands without interference.


"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, ..."

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JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 02-February-2009 at 13:27
Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:


... the chassis was designed to cope with 200bhp in standard form & over 300bhp with a few tweaks. Almost anything you do to the car will have a negative effect.


This is one of the finest chassis still on the road and yet there is a monster-sized market for suspension parts alone. Just look around this forum.

It now looks like nearly everything done this year will use a BMW standard E36 spec of some kind: and some thought and calculation.

And what's this about power. What do I need it for?

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: kbannon
Date Posted: 02-February-2009 at 22:24
Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

The intention is to submit a modified vehicle report.

Are you not already paying enough on insurance?

Originally posted by jimf671 jimf671 wrote:

It is no secret that some police traffic departments have done the same thing and switched off ABS so I am not expecting trouble from that quarter. Also, a major body of evidence now exists for Risk Homeostasis with ABS, so there is no overall safety advantage.
They also have completed advanced driving courses.
As for the ABS and safety (possibly not the best source but you can disprove it if you wish!)
Quote

Efficacy

A 2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia" title="Australia - Australian study http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#cite_note-5" title=" - [6] by Monash University Accident Research Centre found that ABS:

  • Reduced the risk of multiple vehicle crashes by 18 percent,
  • Reduced the risk of run-off-road crashes by 35 percent.

On high-traction surfaces such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitumen" title="Bitumen - bitumen , or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete" title="Concrete - concrete , many (though not all) ABS-equipped cars are able to attain braking distances better (i.e. shorter) than those that would be easily possible without the benefit of ABS. In real world conditions even an alert, skilled driver without ABS would find it difficult, even through the use of techniques like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_braking" title="Threshold braking - threshold braking , to match or improve on the performance of a typical driver with a modern ABS-equipped vehicle. ABS reduces chances of crashing, and/or the severity of impact. The recommended technique for non-expert drivers in an ABS-equipped car, in a typical full-braking emergency, is to press the brake pedal as firmly as possible and, where appropriate, to steer around obstructions. In such situations, ABS will significantly reduce the chances of a skid and subsequent loss of control.

In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring. Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock. The primary benefit of ABS on such surfaces is to increase the ability of the driver to maintain control of the car rather than go into a skid — though loss of control remains more likely on soft surfaces like gravel or slippery surfaces like snow or ice. On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel, it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on comparing all four wheels, and detecting individual wheels skidding). Availability of ABS relieves most drivers from learning threshold braking.

A June 1999 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Highway_Traffic_Safety_Administration" title="National Highway Traffic Safety Administration - National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) study found that ABS increased stopping distances on loose gravel by an average of 22 percent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#cite_note-6" title=" - [7]

According to the NHTSA,

"ABS works with your regular braking system by automatically pumping them. In vehicles not equipped with ABS, the driver has to manually pump the brakes to prevent wheel lockup. In vehicles equipped with ABS, your foot should remain firmly planted on the brake pedal, while ABS pumps the brakes for you so you can concentrate on steering to safety."

When activated, some earlier ABS systems caused the brake pedal to pulse noticeably. As most drivers rarely or never brake hard enough to cause brake lock-up, and a significant number rarely bother to read the car's manual,[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed" title="Wikipedia:Citation needed - citation needed ] this may not be discovered until an emergency. When drivers do encounter an emergency that causes them to brake hard, and thus encounter this pulsing for the first time, many are believed to reduce pedal pressure, and thus lengthen braking distances, contributing to a higher level of accidents than the superior emergency stopping capabilities of ABS would otherwise promise. Some manufacturers have therefore implemented a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_assist" title="Brake assist" class="mw-redirect - brake assist system that determines that the driver is attempting a "panic stop" and the system automatically increases braking force where not enough pressure is applied. Hard or panic braking on bumpy surfaces, because of the bumps causing the speed of the wheel(s) to become erratic may also trigger the ABS. Nevertheless, ABS significantly improves safety and control for drivers in most on-road situations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Efficacy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Effica cy



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Current: 2009 E60 520d "Sport" tractor
Previous: 1989 E30 320i SE
1997 E39 523i
2003 E39 525i Sport Individual


Posted By: W4YNE
Date Posted: 03-February-2009 at 00:16
from what i can make sence of so far??????

you want standard hight stiff as sh*t suspension ??

ABS you want to be able to lock up the front (to rock the arse round)

as for the mega skinny's, they lose traction (spin at the rear easier)when the front of the car nose dives during short skid due to no abs then, front to cut in better (less under steer)once you let of the brakes wieght transfer ???????????????

would welding the diff not be easier it is only a 1.8

POWER 325i or more! you will know the lecht, goin up the hill sittin away at 80 in forth gear plant the foot and she climbs up over the tone, in a 318 you need to drop a gear to even climb


-------------


fecken fox


Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 03-February-2009 at 08:08
Originally posted by W4YNE W4YNE wrote:

from what i can make sence of so far??????

you want standard hight stiff as sh*t suspension ??

Something along those lines I guess.

He's trying to make it handle like a Hillman Imp.

Power Jim, just 'cos you have it doesn't mean you have to use all of it. It's part of what's called car control.

All the suspension kit on sale doesn't mean it makes the car any better, just different. As an "experienced" mechanic of your age should know.



-------------
AndyS
Live each day as if it's your last - one day it will be.

http://www.photostick.co.uk/view-933_BaurSig1.jpg" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 03-February-2009 at 09:43
Originally posted by AndyS AndyS wrote:

... mechanic ...


Stop calling me names. (lol)

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 06-February-2009 at 13:01
E30 arms and M3 bushes done. 138 pounds.

I didn't bother with all the usual faffing about with fancy gear and fancy procedures fitting the bushes. Measured and photographed the position of the lollipops/brackets on the originals. Cold chisel for bush removal. Bushes in freezer and lollipops in the oven while I had my lunch then bang them in with a big hammer. Pre-fitted the bushes in accordance with the measurements and fitted the whole assembly in a couple of minutes a side. Nipped up all the fasteners and then put it on its wheels before torquing everything.

Sod lying in the snow, on a slope, wrestling with those things for a game of whatever.

Painted everything as I went along. Looking neat.

Toe angle has not changed.

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 10-February-2009 at 13:15
Checklist, courtesy of MBW1.


-Bilstein B4 shocks
Probably. Rear soon. Good quality dampers are undoubtedly key to a good result.

-Four new standard springs
Will start with 6-cyl front spring spec. Keep standard at rear at first.

-New rear trailing arm bushes
Probably a good idea. Will have a look at these at the next opportunity.

-E30 front wishbones
Done. Good mod. I can feel the road.

-M3 offset bushes.
Done. Very good mod! Wonderful turn-in response.

-318iS anti roll bars
The 318 bar is massive. I would be surprised if the iS was any different.



------------------

-195 tyre
Worthwhile.

------------------

-Front offset
Anyone know of a way of making a small increase in offset on these cars without going to spacers?

------------------

(Rear right brake adjuster not behaving, so that is taking up far too much time at the moment. Will probably need new parts. An then there was that massive rock that was hidden in the snow on Sunday: oops.)

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JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 20-February-2009 at 12:40
I have bought 4 springs and a pair of struts from Wayne.

After looking up the part numbers on the Sachs-Boge website, it turns out that the front springs and struts are from a late model E36 6-cylinder M-Tech. Good result!

Once I fit the stuff, I shall measure everything and note the sizes and marking of the springs on here.

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: W4YNE
Date Posted: 20-February-2009 at 17:38
GLAD I COULD HELP YOUR MAD PLANS


Still not sure how they will work in the 318 it only bein a 4 pot obviously alot lighter engine.


And i did like that camber trick we spoke about is there any where local that sells the spacer or is it a home fabricate??

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fecken fox


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 24-February-2009 at 10:26
Those spacers can be bought ready made in a series of different sizes. I can't remember where I saw them. Certainly available in the USA but I have seen UK references to them as well.

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JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 02-March-2009 at 12:14
can I just ask one question please?
why do you want to drive through puddles with 160km/h????

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E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 04-March-2009 at 12:43
Originally posted by UweM3 UweM3 wrote:

can I just ask one question please?
why do you want to drive through puddles with 160km/h????


Routinely driving through an area with a typical rainfall of 2800mm (110 inches) per year.

Wet is normal. Surface water is normal.

Sometimes expected to 'make reasonable progress' on this route.

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JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: jimf671
Date Posted: 16-March-2009 at 12:43
A different Rear Trailing Arm Bush is listed for the M3. It has the same bracket in the body but a different trailing arm.

Is this bush a straight swap? The same fit but a better bush?

-------------
JimF



"Nemo me impune lacessit"


Posted By: W4YNE
Date Posted: 18-March-2009 at 05:28
I belive it is my mate had a 318is and he put it into bavarian auto's in aberdeen and they said they only replaced them with the M bush as it is a much stronger bush.

give me a couple of weeks and al tell you, away to get mine back on the road and funny enough I need two off them, wonder if the hill roads (tar only) would have somthin to do with that ?

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fecken fox



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