Most effective engine mods on E30 M3?
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Printed Date: 01-May-2024 at 05:10
Topic: Most effective engine mods on E30 M3?
Posted By: Andyboy
Subject: Most effective engine mods on E30 M3?
Date Posted: 29-February-2004 at 14:31
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Who has fitted cams, exhausts and alternative induction systems to their M3? I've heard of Motec, but what do you reckon? Applies to 2.3 and 2.5 cars.
Who actually got real power figures, and what did the bits cost? Worthwhile or not..................? |
Replies:
Posted By: therealmccoy
Date Posted: 29-February-2004 at 16:08
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I fitted Shrick 274 cams to an S14, power increased to 231.7 BHP, torque also up. In my opinion, cams are the best mod. They give the most power difference for the money. I payed £3k, but that also included the engine rebuild.
James ------------- Work Harder! A Million Benefit Claimants Depend On YOU! E30 M3, The REAL McCoy! 89 M3 Now Sold 99 323i *FOR SALE* http://www.furzetech.co.uk" rel="nofollow - PC Probs?? Click here! |
Posted By: jon90
Date Posted: 29-February-2004 at 18:13
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Depends what you use the car for.If its an every day car then I would do no more than a custom remap, you will be amazed at the differance.Mine went from 208bhp to 216bhp,but thats not the whole story,its better every where,almost a joy to drive in traffic.£350.
284/276 Shricks,with custom remap.Again mine went from 216bhp to 234bhp.Ideal if you like a few track days, not so good for better driving days. Moves the powerband up the range a bit,so you lose a little bit low down.but from 5-7800rpm goes very well.£1200. 284/284 remap 240/5bhp.Bit of a pain in town, as you get nowt for nowt.But when it goes wow!£1200. 2.5 I`ll let you know.But judging by what others get about 250bhp with the 284/276 combo and with alpha N about 265bhp.and very driveable.Just the engine about £3500/4 as I already have the cams. Jon |
Posted By: Andyboy
Date Posted: 29-February-2004 at 18:33
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I guess a pair of good used cams from a 215 bhp car will fit an earlier 200 bhp (or 195 bhp) car and give a boost.
Which is better; Alpha N or Motec? |
Posted By: jon90
Date Posted: 29-February-2004 at 19:01
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I would have thought you would get some gain,but dont forget the 215bhp cars have bigger throttle bodies,different heads,exhaust manifold and possibly air filter housing?
Motec is one of the best out there,but its £££`s Jon |
Posted By: piratepete
Date Posted: 29-February-2004 at 19:44
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I would go along with jonjo a custom remap is the best value for money my car pushed out 225 bhp standard with a miltek after remapping at bexleys, cost £400. I later fitted the schrick cams £1200 not realy very good as far as bangs for your bucks go. If you start looking at 2.5 rebuilds and motec you need to budget £6000 - £8000. The motec system is good but you could buy a left hook e46 m3 for 25k if you really need lots of power. cheers ------------- PIRATE PETE |
Posted By: John W
Date Posted: 29-February-2004 at 22:41
MoTec is a brand/company (Australian!) whereas alpha-N refers to what a MoTec computer contributes to doing. Alpha-N is a type of set up that fundamentally changes the way an engine with an air flow meter works (it is not a brand). A standard E30 M3 has a Bosch Motronic engine management computer and an air flow mter (AFM). The Motronic computer needs to know the air flow measurement in order to decide how much fuel to put in the cylinders and also the ignition timing at any given point in time. The alpha-N set up doesn't need an AFM. It measures the revs of the engine, the position of your throttle, plus things like manifold pressure, air temp, exhaust gas make-up (the lambda sensor) and then it decides how much fuel to put in (the fuel map) and the ignition timing (ignition map). So why does it make the engine more powerful? Because in an engine like the S14, the AFM is the biggest limiting factor in the power it can make. The AFM is ditched when you fit an alpha-N set-up. Alpha-N set-ups give you more power throughout the rev range, whereas cams and a remap give you most of the benefit at the top end. However, it is more expensive. Powerstation in Gloucester are the MoTec gurus and they will fit MoTec plus all its fancy sensors and looms and maop the thing on the rolling road for £2500 including VAT. Cams and a re-map somes to £1200. So Alpha-N (using MoTec hardware) is twice the price. However, if I was able to have only one upgrade and money wasn't a problem, I'd go MoTec (ie alpha-N). There are other companies that supply plug and play alpha-N solutions for S14 engines. Maxx is one (I think m3pilot, Martin is putting this on his) and it is cheaper.....but I don't know how easy it is to map. Will it be lumpy? What will tick-over be like? With MoTec I guarantee the engine will run beautifully. My Sport Evo started with 225 BHP on Bexleys rollers. 284/272 cams, Milltek exhaust and the MoTec got power up to 252 BHP and torque went up from 180 to 200 lb/ft. Not cheap.....but it was very fast. Andy O'Hara's Sport Evo with MoTec, Milltek and 284/284 cams made 263 BHP. In my opinion all E30 M3s would be best off with 250 BHP.....the chassis can easily take it. The problem is it costs a lot to do this. |
Andyboy wrote:Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 29-February-2004 at 23:51
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JohnW, mine was doing 251 on Bexley's dyno with the AFM and no Motec, so what's the point of spending 2500? I know you will say the throttle respone is so much more crisp, but is that worth 2500??? On track the throttle is anyway most of the time fully open. I always thought I need Alpha-N, but for now I am fine. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: John W
Date Posted: 01-March-2004 at 09:30
If yours has alpha-N it would be putting out 260-270 BHP. I'm serious. Everyone seems to get 10-20 BHP gain throughout the rev range. And that's the crucial thing....throughout!! You need to look at the before and after power figures in my post. The cams and MoTec with new exhaust made 27 BHP and 20 lb/ft difference....but it felt like much more! Your engine is obviously healthier than mine was before we modified it. This means you have even more to gain. You could even end up with more power than Andy O'hara...he get 263 BHP. What cams do you have? Are you up for the challenge?!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Eamo
Date Posted: 01-March-2004 at 09:39
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Uwe -
What have you done to extract that much power?? ------------- |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 01-March-2004 at 10:41
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2.5 conversion with BMW EVO3 pistons, 290cams, a little bit of head modification, 10.9 compression. And some custom mapping of course (thanks Nigel).
John, if I imagine that this was achived with the exhaust pictured below, a standard 215bhp head with standard valves(no EVO3 here)and the smallest header, how much more is left to gain? 
My onest opinion? there isn't that much more like everybody thinks. Otherwise I would end up with 300bhp haha. 251+20Alpha-N+8Miltek+don't know high compression pistons+EVO3 header=???? The overall package can surely be improved, but I am cautious about all this +20 figures.  ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: John W
Date Posted: 01-March-2004 at 14:55
Well Uwe.....there is only one way to find out.....talk to Powerstation!! And let's see MoTec by the summer!! |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 01-March-2004 at 16:52
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no way mate! I will invest the money in some tyres and track time.
Uwe (and I hope you come along with your overgrown beetle to give me a hard time )------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: John W
Date Posted: 01-March-2004 at 18:04
I will try to get to Donny if you lot go there. However, my Porsche was designed for driving slowly down the high street looking at birds. They do a twin turbo model with 4 wheel drive which is more directly descended from the Beetle....I hope to have one of those before long.....then I'll race ya!! |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 02-March-2004 at 10:57
| What's peoples call on cams here, most say keeping the inlet / exhaust staggerd ie like std (or 284/272 etc) is the way to go. How does having equal inlet / exhaust cams ( 284/ 284)affect the engine charaterisics / powerband? |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 02-March-2004 at 11:37
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The offset cam setup is probably because on a well designed engine the exhaust should flow about 85% of the inlet. On the s14 it's closer to 120% !!!!!!! hence the reason why the standard exhaust manifold is just about the best, others may make one or two bhp here and there but no significant improvement.
I have the same size cams, and the effect is a little more power higher up the rev range. The downside is a bit less tourque at lower revs. |
Posted By: Andyboy
Date Posted: 03-March-2004 at 18:39
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Thanks John, food for thought. The Motec is pricey though. The main problem with the AFM is that the big alloy flap is a serious detriment to air flow. When my Dad owned AmD (you may have heard of them being a Porsche pilot now....) they did a conversion on the 1983 - 88 911 Carrera 3.2 which had Motronic. It was converted to an air mass meter similar to those used on cars like the E36 where a plastic tube has a heated wire - the more air that goes through, the cooler the wire gets and the ECU takes readings from this. This used to give excellent results - about 10 or 15 bhp from memory. Dad's semi retired now but always up to stuff - a decent air mass meter conversion for the E30 M3 at a fraction of the Motec cost?
By the way, the Sport Evo used the same air flow meter as the E32 730i/735i and the E34 530i/535i should anyone bullsh*t owners into thinking that it's a rare part! (It's an 0280 203 027) |
Posted By: grant w
Date Posted: 03-March-2004 at 19:53
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i bought my evo sport AFM with a e34 535i part number from german and swedish for £110 cheaper than the stealers wanted , i only differance is the 535i is mounted the other way up to a e30 m3 .. ------------- 
www.redevom3.co.uk 1989 e30 m3 2.5 1996 e36 m3 evo , sold 2002 e46 m3 smg . 1991 Daihatsu 2.8 TD Work Horse Rust Never Sleeps . Tattooed Lady - Bearded Baby - there my family .. |
Posted By: Andyboy
Date Posted: 04-March-2004 at 09:20
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So, what are the exact differences between the regular 200 bhp car and the 215 bhp/220 bhp cars? Anybody know what the ECU numbers are on their cars inc SpEvo? (remove the trim panel under the steering column and look up at the ECU. Number begins with 0261)
Thanx! |
Posted By: M3Nally
Date Posted: 04-March-2004 at 09:46
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Andyboy,
An Air mass meter together with a custom remap could be just what the doctor ordered for those not wanting to spend thousands for a bit of extra oomph and drivability. Personally I'd be happy to just get rid of the chug chug when starting from cold. Sound like a project for your dad then? As for differences between 200 and 215/220, I know the latter had bigger throttle bodies, up from 46mm to 48 mm I think. The 220bhp has more agressive cams and sodium filled valves for better cooling, not sure if they are then same as 215 though. 220 had higher 11;1 comp ratio and with more torque 180lb/ft, so they also ran a higher diff of 3.15;1 from 3.25;1. giving lower revs for more relaxed motorway driving, though for competition the reason would have been for higher top speed I presume! |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 04-March-2004 at 14:38
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I thought the sodium filled exhaust valves were only fitted to Evo Sport, and they're bigger too
is that right?? |
Posted By: piratepete
Date Posted: 04-March-2004 at 20:51
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Probably being a bit dense here but dont split second manufacture a maff wire kit for the e30m3 priced around £600. Also i believe thaybot evo sports have standard valve sizes. Did not the GPa spec valves also stick with the standard size and if so is there any point in going bigger. ps I have taken off my new 284/276 cams after only 200 miles due to problems of clearence with the skimmed head. And if anybody wants them i can bring them to rockingham for £650.
------------- PIRATE PETE |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 04-March-2004 at 21:12
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pete, how much is your clearance? Can't you machine the pistons to match. I know this is causing some more work,
but belive me it's well worth the effort. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Andyboy
Date Posted: 04-March-2004 at 21:42
| Split second? Who? |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 04-March-2004 at 22:59
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Andyboy, I have driven an M3 with the Splitsecond kit.
Even if the quality of the kit is second to none I wasn't very impressed with the performance. Just not enough bang for the bucks IMO. you still need a remap to get the full potential out of the MAF. I am sure if Andy O'Hara is reading this topic he can give some first hand expericence as he has owned a kit himself. He replaced it with a real Alpha-N (Motec) here is the link http://www.splitsec.com - Split Second ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: John W
Date Posted: 05-March-2004 at 00:42
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The Split second mass air flow (MAF) conversion was tried by Andy O'Hara. It is the same as the hot film conversion that AMD and others do for 911s. The problem is it cannot be mapped in real time, so I would ignore it.
Put simply, if you want rid of your air flow meter (AFM) go for an alpha-N solution like MoTec and don't bother with MAF solutions like Split Second. |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 05-March-2004 at 12:11
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just going back to valve sizes and pirate pete's comment, i thought group a required standard valve sizes which is why bigger ones (which were sodium filled) were homologated on the sport??
anyone know for sure?? |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 05-March-2004 at 12:25
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http://www.e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/engine-tech/e34m5_valve/index.htm
This is what has got me thinking - Sport intake valves are bigger - stupid of me to think it would have been the exhaust, but i think it's the exhaust valves that are sodium 'cooled' if you want bigger intakes valves, something's easily available, but against that the throttle bodies, bore and exhaust are already bigger on the Sport so in itself on a non Sport engine p'haps too much for too little still interested to hear if anyone can confirm re bigger Sport valves and sodium?? http://http://www.e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/engine-tech/e34m5_valve/index.htm - http://www.e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/engine-tech/e34m5_valve/index.htm damn this hyperlink thing - can't work it |
Posted By: M3Nally
Date Posted: 05-March-2004 at 14:16
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I am sure i read an old marketing brochure when i had my first Evo2 that the valves were sodium filled for better cooling.
The inlet valves on Sport Evo are larger at 38.5 mm instead of the regular 38mm. I'll see if I can find out how big the Evo2 valves are, unless anyone knows. Sport Evo cam duration is longer at 282 from 264 |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 05-March-2004 at 15:13
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Sport EVO:
Inlet Valves 38.5 mm (38 for the rest of the M3 world) Exhaust Valves : Natruim filled Inlet cam: 272 deg Source: BMW Press Bulletin ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: therealmccoy
Date Posted: 05-March-2004 at 15:50
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To solve the "flap" problem on the standard AFM, I had heard that an American spec E36 3.0 M3 has no flap, and is interchangeable with the standard. Only makes an estimated 10BHP, but cheeper than the full blown conversion.
Not sure if this is true or not, anyone heard anything else?? James ------------- Work Harder! A Million Benefit Claimants Depend On YOU! E30 M3, The REAL McCoy! 89 M3 Now Sold 99 323i *FOR SALE* http://www.furzetech.co.uk" rel="nofollow - PC Probs?? Click here! |
Posted By: adwo
Date Posted: 05-March-2004 at 23:38
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It's not true, the E36 M3 engine has no AFM, but a MAF sensor... (yes, I know: also the american version has a MAF sensor. Americans go to the EURO E36 M3 MAF on their american E36 M3 because of the bigger intake size, that brings about 10 HP). Adwo |
Posted By: therealmccoy
Date Posted: 06-March-2004 at 10:56
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It's not true, the E36 M3 engine has no AFM, but a MAF sensor... (yes, I know: also the american version has a MAF sensor. Americans go to the EURO E36 M3 MAF on their american E36 M3 because of the bigger intake size, that brings about 10 HP). Adwo [/QUOTE]Ah, so I was half right then (power) 
Cheers, James ------------- Work Harder! A Million Benefit Claimants Depend On YOU! E30 M3, The REAL McCoy! 89 M3 Now Sold 99 323i *FOR SALE* http://www.furzetech.co.uk" rel="nofollow - PC Probs?? Click here! |