E30 M3 with blown /no ngine??
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Category: Technical & Model Specific Forums
Forum Name: BMW ///M Power
Forum Discription: Ask your BMW M Power Technical Questions here (M1, M2 hybrids, M3, M5 & M6)
URL: http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=6691
Printed Date: 28-April-2024 at 21:35
Topic: E30 M3 with blown /no ngine??
Posted By: Weeksy
Subject: E30 M3 with blown /no ngine??
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 10:46
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Hi there, I'm about to embark on converting an E30 M3 to run a Turbocharged Cosworth YB for 400 bhp+ potential, so I'm on the lookout for another car to convert into a full track day weapon! Must be stright and clean, (don't want to think about painting it, and I couldn't drive a tatty basket!) Interior is not too important, as I'm going to strip it and stick a cage in there too to keep it all nice and tight. Any ideas on the prices for the above? Are they around, or am I going to have to convert my present example?? Thanks and Regards Weeksy |
Replies:
Posted By: Rags
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 13:04
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i know of one at a breakers yard. ------------- 
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Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 13:08
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Mags, Just left a post for you matey. How trucked is it? Must be bad to be on the way to car heaven. Colour? I want a black one like yours my good man! Regards Weeksy |
Posted By: amorgan
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 14:57
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weeksy Just out of interest, what sort of money are you looking to spend on this project ------------- am |
Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 15:31
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Amorgan, Do you mean on the donor vehicle, or the car all finished?? Regards Weeksy |
Posted By: amorgan
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 15:33
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well to be honest, both ------------- am |
Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 15:38
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Amorgan, I'm budgeting about 4 grand for a car, and all in 10 to 12 grand. That will include the engine and box, quaife diff, coilovers, poly bushes all round, Ap brakes up front(and 17" wheels to cover them), braided lines inside the car and such like. I want to have the cage welded in for extra rigidity, and have a plumbed in fire extinguisher system too. Does that sound about right you matey? I'm aware that these sort of projects always go over budget, but I want this all sorted to do a few track days! Regards Weeksy
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Posted By: amorgan
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 15:45
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I am sure i can say for many people on here that i would like to see the finished product. thats for sure. ------------- am |
Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 15:48
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Amorgan, Not as much as me matey, My saff will have to go to finance it all unfortunately. I don't want to cut corners, or have an unfinished project, so it will have to go Weeksy |
Posted By: dom_k
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 18:57
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Edited, please read the forum guidelines regarding items for sale ------------- www.dkperformanceimports.co.uk |
Posted By: amorgan
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 19:32
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just out of interest, what are the details of your car? ------------- am |
Posted By: rr_ww
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 20:03
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Weeksy
Keep us updated on this. I will be REALLY interested in it. If yoyu want inspiration for the stripped out look. Check this link http://www.teutonic.ca/features/kevinMatthewM3s/images_kevin.php - M3NTAL Kevs M3 Love his car ------------- Rich. 
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Posted By: matt.m3
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 21:31
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Weeksy Just a question why the cossy convertion??? and not a turbo S14, after all they both similar engine styles? ------------- Matt |
Posted By: rr_ww
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 21:57
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Matt.M3
The Cosworth YB engine is sooo tuneable its unreal. Standard is 204 or 224 BHP depending on block. 330 (Stage 3) is £1000 or so away. 400 is 5Kish and 550 BHP is £10Kish Its partly down to the size of valves and bore to stroke ratios. There are relatively few Turbo S14s around in the WORLD so to get reliable power means investing in a lot of R&D which is costly. a 400 brake low compression engine was recently on eBay for £2K. So its far cheaper to convert to cossie, with all the grief for the wiring than to try and extract similar power from the S14. HTH ------------- Rich.
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Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 09:21
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rr_ww, Cheers for that reply matey!! And that link, that car is the B*llocks, mine a replica of that, but with Recaro buckets!! The engines are similar in size and stats, but then completely different at the same time!! That's exactly it sir. I think it's far easier to start off with an engine that is designed for forced induction, than to start trying to mod a N/A one. As rr_ww says, the port size / valve sizes /cam profiles on a N/A engine are too big/ too big and too radical for turbo use. This would be changing all these components to make it work, otherwise it's lag city!! And that is without taking into account the squish/ compression set up. I would hate to turn an S14 into a piston blowing mess, that would shame BMW. Hence fitting the cossie engine would make it fast, relaible and would not upset the handling (I hope!) I will prob start at 350ish bhp, with 'green' injectors, a 3 BAR MAP Sensor, at34 turbo and re-written chip.This will give scope for 400 ish on that size turbo Uwe, Sorry mate, but the thought of producing 550 bhp from a std looking E30 M3 makes me weak at the knees! I doubt an S14 could ever be streched that far- unless someone knows better??? Regards Weeksy |
Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 09:31
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Fellas, What are your thoughts on converting thsi car to RHD hypothetically?? Seeing as it's going to come apart, and there is no need for a special exhaust manifold as per the S14 converted, what do you think?? Weeksy |
Posted By: cecotto147
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 10:27
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Weeksy, there was in autotrader in colchester last week for 3500. Been advertised in bmw car a while ago, same number, and been in autotrader for three weeks so it may still be available. Was going to do the same with it as you are planning and flog the other bits off to fund it but blown minker I will try and find the ad Edited to remove objectionable language, please read the forum guidelines ------------- |
and the fact that insurance will not pay out for a rear spolier which won't paint has distracted funds somewhat.Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 11:25
weeksy, it is getting worse with you! On top of that hairdryer powered FORD lump comes a RHD 10 turn lock to lock conversion 
Please tell me what will be left from the spirit of the best touring car in the world after all that?????????? one more
and another one
(not to be taken too serious......just a bit) ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 11:54
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Uwe, We drive on the left here tho!! Is a RHD steering rack not so good then?? All the sweet mechanicals and bodwork, only the engine and box non BMW!! The best touring car bit is debatable sir, I have to say. The COsworths cleaned up so well, that the BTCC banned turbochargers!! A victim of it's own success wouldn't you say?? If I am compromising the spec that much, would you be up for cahllenging the finished article on a track day??!! Weeksy |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 12:10
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On the steering rack front am sure a quick rack for the 325i is available these days from TAS.
Or you could try Gustave's conversion using RHD E36 rack. Agree with Uwe - it's all very well saying that the Cossies were quicker, but they were in a different capacity class. Turbos weren't banned in the BTCC, a new, single class at 2 litres was introduced which wasn't ideal for the M3 either. And don't forget that in the World Touring Car Championship (only lasted one year) the M3 won one of the rounds outright, which was remarkable. Due respect to the Cossies tho but for me being turbocharged makes it a different sort of car. You need slicks etc to make use of the monster tuneability otherwise all you have is a mental dragster thing. But on the other hand the Cossie engine does offer serious power at reasonable cost....swings and roundabouts... |
Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 12:26
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Jonners, Cheers for that, I knew nothing about the steering side of it all I was aware that they raced in the same class, bot the car had around 350bhp in race trim, but then the RS500 arrived... Both remarkable cars in their own right jonners, I think you will admit. It will be different, much more powerful! I am not going to make it undriveable, and I certainly don't want a dragstrip only monster neither I beleive I can make it a right weapon with thew right suspension set up, wheel tyre package, and brake system. Do you agree? Weeksy |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 12:46
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Weeksy,
so if the Cossy was so succesful in BTCC, why do you not take one of these then? If it was the better car anyway.... I am looking forward to see this hybrid on track  ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: amorgan
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 12:58
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weeksy. thought in an earlier post that you had a 450bhp cosworth. With the m3 you would be starting to build quite a nice collection. how about a audi quattro turbo next. That is prob the only car that could tempt me away from the red beast at the moment. ------------- am |
Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 14:03
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Uwe, I have a Cosworth too, with the 450 bhp Amorgan has just enquired about. I am not a fan of the 3 door sierra, with the tea tray spoiler. I love E30 M3's, think they need more power, and besides , as far as I'm aware, it hasn't been done before!I think it would make a lovely cocktail Are you challenging me sir? Care to lay a wager on it?? Amorgan, It may have to go to finance this project, and make it a proper track machine, Regards Weeksy
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Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 14:44
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Weeksy
The conversion has been done before - as well as the recent thread on here on the subject I saw one at Clayton BMW a few years ago - it's possible that the car referred to in the recent thread is actually the same one that I saw. The point is that one of the chaps who runs Claytons used to rallycross an M3 with a cossie engine - when he gave it up he transfeered the bits into a road car. Claytons are an independent BMW specialist in Bristol and are very friendly and knowledgable - so it might be worth giving them a buzz because i'm sure they'll remember all the little tweeks needed for the conversion - might save you a lot of grief. Their number is 0117 963 1699 - ask for Pete Snowdon. Going back to the steering rack thing, I reckon there's a vital point that people miss when they dismiss the original RHD conversions that were officially carried out over here when the car was new. The components used for the conversion had to be BMW since the converted cars were brand new. Clearly BMW were not prepared to make an RHD M3 rack, but if there had been the freedom to use non-BMW parts, producing a higher ratio rack wouldn't have been that difficult. Nowadays, a lot more stuff is available and I reckon it's worth doing if you want to. And it's not as if that side of things alone is going to annoy the purists given what you are proposing to do.... |
Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 15:00
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Jonners, You are the man, Thanks for all that info, much appreciated sir. Didn't Bird's convert them to RHD back in the day? I think they were based in Middlesex? There were roadtests comparing the M3 (in RHD form) against the Sapphire Cosworth, and the Cosworth Merc 190 2.3 16, and I believe the car was converted by them. It seems to be worth doing to make the most of it all, wouldn't you say? I would like to keep the PAS nonethelsess. Is that feasble? Regards Weeksy |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 15:19
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Even better than a custom rack would be to follow this...
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Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 15:20
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oops, deliberate mistake
http://http://www.e30m3performance.com/installs/installs-3/e36rack/index.htm - http://www.e30m3performance.com/installs/installs-3/e36rack/index.htm |
Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 16:35
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Jonners, That kiddie doesn't open matey! Weeksy |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 18:01
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http://www.e30m3performance.com/installs/installs-3/e36rack/index.htm - http://www.e30m3performance.com/installs/installs-3/e36rack/index.htm
trying again - otherwise just type the above address and click...give it a go |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 18:02
| think it's working this time |
Posted By: rr_ww
Date Posted: 03-April-2004 at 19:38
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Weeksy
Got another link for you to have a butchers at. http://www.bsmotor.com/ - Turbo M3 If you can get hold of them, try speaking to http://www.djm-motorsport.co.uk/ - DJM as they were responsible for helping a guy with a Silver M3 put a V8 in it. They do loads of one off custom engineering. Not cheap but very knowledgeable. ------------- Rich.
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Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 05-April-2004 at 09:20
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Jonners, Thanks for that matey, I reckon that would frightfully expensive tho!! rr_ww, a nice machine, but a 6 is too heavy!! I don't think i'm going to need much in the way of custom engineering, the exception being prop, engine and box mounts!! Maybe I'm feeling a bit too optimistic about all this??! |
Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 05-April-2004 at 13:51
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Weeksy
I take your point about cost - probably the complicated way of doing things too. I think you're on the right track and what you're proposing to do shouldn't be a problem. Excellent choice of gearboxes too. Persevere with the RHD thing - I reckon it's on without too much fuss and with something better than the std 325i rack used by Birds - you'll prove a lot of people wrong and convert a few too I reckon.... |
Posted By: Weeksy
Date Posted: 05-April-2004 at 15:33
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Jonners, I don't intend cutting the car about at all, and I am 99% sure the gearbox will fit in the tunnel no worries, so the rest should just fall into place. I would like to get the engine as far back as poss,to keep the handling sweet, but ultimately, this is dictated by the position of the gear lever in the hole!! You mean the trusty old T5? Not even a ford box, a proper tough bit of Borg Warner equipment...I will miss having first gear in the wrong place afterwards tho.... Do you mean with the car in general, or the steering rack part of it? regards Scott
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Posted By: Jonners
Date Posted: 05-April-2004 at 17:32
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Well, both things really - the more I think about it the more I think a hybrid like this could really be something special.
Am not a turbo fan - just don't like them - but even with a naturally aspirated Cosworth (especially with an expensive alloy, big bore block) power might be easier to find for reasonable money than with the S14. After spending another fantastic weekend hillclimbing at Prescott and admiring some of the ingenuity out there with lawnmower engines attached to wheelbarrows and so forth I'm coming round to your way of thinking - there's a fantastic tradition of specials builders in this country and some of the results are astonishing. Best one I've seen lately is a clubmans car using a BDX (basically a big capacity BDA with a turbo), with no radiator (!), and a tiny compressor from a helicopter rigged up to the turbo to keep it spinning (to avoid lag). The driver's helpers would line the car up on the line rather than the driver positioning it as the time it can run with no rad is very marginal. The they'd start the compressor - very surreal sound that eventually disappeared as it went beyond the human range of hearing (dogs were barking for miles...) - then they'd start her up and he's be off like a shot before the whole thing went bang. Truly amazing. They guy who put the whole thing together once ran a Morris Minor with a monster Rover V8 that was very famous at the time. It's amazing what can be achieved. As for the steering, as I said i really believe with the backup that's out there in the tuning market these days I think a really good job is on and a lot of folks might decide that they want to do it too... |