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shorty View Drop Down
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Points: 1758 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 05:57
Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

The public ignore them, insurance companies ignore them (in my experience), and now magistrates ignore them lol

http://www.itvregions.com/Granada/News/Driver+keeps+licence+ despite+31+penalty+points.htm

Wish the insurance people had ignored mine Nigel , rise of £350 for my points !!!!!

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livvy View Drop Down
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 07:32
Originally posted by shorty shorty wrote:

Originally posted by Doive Doive wrote:

Originally posted by whitey whitey wrote:

Well they should do.... thieving scum.

Agreed! If some hood broke into my house, I'd like to think he would be sent to the slammer for a couple of years, not allowed to come back the following night for another go. Now of course, I could avoid seeing him the next night by defending my property and rendering him unconscious - then I'd get to spend the next night in jail! Problem solved.

 Oh so true Doive . you catch some scumbag "doing " your car & nicking stuff that you have WORKED hard to get  , you knock him out & you are the "criminal " ????????? . Had this some years ago caught " ned " breaking my window to nick my C.D player ( he was in the car gouging it out with a screwdriver ) pulled him out by scruff of the neck & knocked the "Hell " out of him , one of my "Kindly " neighbors saw me do this to a " Young yr old BOY " & called the police . P.C arrived " I've got him for you " i said but was me that got nicked for " common assault " ???????? Had to take day off work ( unpaged ) to go to court & fined £50 . He on the other hand ( who had done this & various other similar stuff )pleaded he was on " unemployment " & was down on his luck !!!!!!! what did he get ? ......... £30 with six months to pay !!!!!!!  British justice eh !



I'm sorry shorty........

But it is not up to you to meet out a bit of summary justice. You can only use such force as is reasonable, necessary & within the law. You can't simply exact whatever revenge you see fit.


Edited by livvy
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Doive View Drop Down
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Points: 1212 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 07:48
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

I'm sorry shorty........

But it is not up to you to meet out a bit of summary justice. You can only use such force as is reasonable, necessary & within the law. You can't simply exact whatever revenge you see fit.

Oh come on livvy, that's a load of horse wotsit and you know it.

I'm entirely with shorty, if I caught some thieving little toerag putting in my car window, which I have worked very hard to afford, I would not hesitate in dragging him out of the car and rendering him unconscious. So what was shorty to do then? What does the law allow? Reasonable force?! The guy had a screwdriver - shorty says 'excuse me old chap, I wonder if you'd mind awfully getting out of my car?', so guy gets out and stabs him with screwdriver. Result - murder. Shorty was right.

In my eyes, someone who breaks into your property has stepped outside the law, and so by doing that they lose any rights they had. I think the owners of such property should be allowed to take whatever steps are necessary to restrain the criminal with their own safety being the #1 priority. If someone broke into my house in the dead of night, my first though would be for my family not my possessions, and as such I would take suitable steps to keep such a person away from them. If that involved knocking them unconscious and tying them up, then that is what I would do. And I make no apologies for that.    
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livvy View Drop Down
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 07:59
It's not a load of horse wotsit at all.

Shorty obviously went too far because he/she was convicted of assault.

Your best defence is knowing exactly what the law says & acting within it. You can of course use reasonable & necessary force in both detaining offenders & in defending yourself or others. In certain circumstances that can mean even lethal force & a pre-emptive strike, the law is quite clear.

Knowledge is the power that protects you where you use force, ignorance of the law is what leaves you wide open.

Nobody is allowed to punish someone with a beating.


Edited by livvy
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shorty View Drop Down
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Points: 1758 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 08:26

@ livvy :- but what is too far ? do i smack him once & send him on his way " you naughty scallywag be off with you " ? or do as i did & knock him out for destroying my ( hard earned ) property that he had no right to tamper with in the first place ? Anyway had my "kindly neabour " not called the police no one would have known what had gone on & he might think again about doing it to some other poor person ? Do you think he would have gone to the local police station to report me ? " and why did this gentleman assault you ? "   " well you see man i was trying to nick his C.D. player from his car that i had just broken into & he comes out the house like a man demented & knocks me into next week "

Rough justice me thinks after all if he hadn't done my car he would still have his " debonair " good looks & not needed 5 stitches to a cut above his eye & a burst nose !! 

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livvy View Drop Down
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 08:43
How far you can go depends on the circumstances. You can only use the amount of force that is reasonable & necessary to detain someone, any excess is an abuse of force & is a criminal act.

In defence of yourself/others you can use reasonable & necessary force to avert that threat. The level of force used has to be proportional to the actual/perceived threat level.

As I say knowledge & accurate judgement of what is acceptable in each individual circumstances is what is necessary.
My views expressed are just that.
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Points: 3625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 09:09

Originally posted by Mike Fishwick Mike Fishwick wrote:

I'm glad I live in France, with a French licence.

I'm glad I live in France with an English licence - the rules have been changed and you no longer have to change you licence within 12 months if you have a European licenece already.

The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
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Points: 3625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 09:23

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

How far you can go depends on the circumstances. You can only use the amount of force that is reasonable & necessary to detain someone, any excess is an abuse of force & is a criminal act.

In defence of yourself/others you can use reasonable & necessary force to avert that threat. The level of force used has to be proportional to the actual/perceived threat level.

As I say knowledge & accurate judgement of what is acceptable in each individual circumstances is what is necessary.

Ahh, the old "Knowledge is Power" chestnut... I like! So what we need to do is arm ourselves with the appropriate understanding of the law and use it to beat the theiving scumbags to within an inch of the law!!
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
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livvy View Drop Down
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 09:26
Originally posted by Derek M5 Derek M5 wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

How far you can go depends on the circumstances. You can only use the amount of force that is reasonable & necessary to detain someone, any excess is an abuse of force & is a criminal act.

In defence of yourself/others you can use reasonable & necessary force to avert that threat. The level of force used has to be proportional to the actual/perceived threat level.

As I say knowledge & accurate judgement of what is acceptable in each individual circumstances is what is necessary.

Ahh, the old "Knowledge is Power" chestnut... I like! So what we need to do is arm ourselves with the appropriate understanding of the law and use it to beat the theiving scumbags to within an inch of the law!!



You never know who is watching, just ask some soldiers in Iraq




Edited by livvy
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Points: 3625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 10:27

So long as it's kept within bounds as recommended by you it should be fine!

Won't comment on the Iraq thing as I'm having a relatively good day and don't want to get worked up!
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2006 at 10:37
Originally posted by Derek M5 Derek M5 wrote:

So long as it's kept within bounds as recommended by you it should be fine!


The guidelines I recommend are the law, so yes.



Originally posted by Derek M5 Derek M5 wrote:


Won't comment on the Iraq thing as I'm having a relatively good day and don't want to get worked up!
My views expressed are just that.
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dirtybeemer View Drop Down
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Points: 563 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-February-2006 at 08:32

A police officer told me reasonable force was if someone comes towards you and you feel your life was in danger then you can hit them as many times as necessary to make your escape, aslong as you dont give them a good kicking if they go down (such spoilsports).

If you catch someone on your property then you are supposed to withstrain them thats why anyone caught on my property came at me in a threatening manner (knuckle duster works well).

Did anyone get Mr Englander's solicitors phone no by the way ?



Edited by dirtybeemer
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thepits View Drop Down
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Points: 10000473 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-February-2006 at 08:42
Originally posted by shorty shorty wrote:

Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

The public ignore them, insurance companies ignore them (in my experience), and now magistrates ignore them lol

http://www.itvregions.com/Granada/News/Driver+keeps+licence+ despite+31+penalty+points.htm 

Wish the insurance people had ignored mine Nigel , rise of £350 for my points !!!!!  

Shorty, you're obviously with the wrong company. Told both my Insurers about my 3 speeding points - both said made no problem (in fact one commented that he'd very surprised if some-one Didn't have speeding points these days - ahem!) and that it made no difference to either of my policys.  
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shorty View Drop Down
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Points: 1758 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-February-2006 at 18:06
Originally posted by thepits thepits wrote:

Originally posted by shorty shorty wrote:

Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

The public ignore them, insurance companies ignore them (in my experience), and now magistrates ignore them lol

http://www.itvregions.com/Granada/News/Driver+keeps+licence+ despite+31+penalty+points.htm 

Wish the insurance people had ignored mine Nigel , rise of £350 for my points !!!!!  

Shorty, you're obviously with the wrong company. Told both my Insurers about my 3 speeding points - both said made no problem (in fact one commented that he'd very surprised if some-one Didn't have speeding points these days - ahem!) and that it made no difference to either of my policys.  

Ah ! but maybe i wasn't too clear ...... i have 9 points !!!!!!!!!

Been turned down for 3 jobs due to this !!!! Wish the camera partnerships would stop messing up folks lives . Its not like i am an armed robber ( Livvy :- i know what you will say mate that it is a CRIME all the same  !!! ) All 9 were from the video vans on a clear motorway in dry conditions with no one else around ???? the only danger to anyone was to ME ????? 

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livvy View Drop Down
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-February-2006 at 18:19
Originally posted by shorty shorty wrote:

Originally posted by thepits thepits wrote:

Originally posted by shorty shorty wrote:

Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

The public ignore them, insurance companies ignore them (in my experience), and now magistrates ignore them lol

http://www.itvregions.com/Granada/News/Driver+keeps+licence+ despite+31+penalty+points.htm 

Wish the insurance people had ignored mine Nigel , rise of £350 for my points !!!!!  

Shorty, you're obviously with the wrong company. Told both my Insurers about my 3 speeding points - both said made no problem (in fact one commented that he'd very surprised if some-one Didn't have speeding points these days - ahem!) and that it made no difference to either of my policys.  

Ah ! but maybe i wasn't too clear ...... i have 9 points !!!!!!!!!

Been turned down for 3 jobs due to this !!!! Wish the camera partnerships would stop messing up folks lives . Its not like i am an armed robber ( Livvy :- i know what you will say mate that it is a CRIME all the same  !!! ) All 9 were from the video vans on a clear motorway in dry conditions with no one else around ???? the only danger to anyone was to ME ????? 



Shorty

You didn't get the points because you were a danger to anyone. You got the points because you went past a line that has been drawn in the sand, a line that is there as a preventative measure (to prevent the possible danger being caused to anyone.)

You know the law & you have control of your vehicles speed. There have been speed limits on our roads if not for most of the time you have been driving, then all the time you have. You can't balme others for your inability to keep to the limit.

If you value your licence, your livelyhood, then why not take responsibility for it & protect it ?
Nobody can "mess with your life" then.


Edited by livvy
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Horsetan View Drop Down
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Points: 6381 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-February-2006 at 18:19

Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Fishwick Mike Fishwick wrote:

....I'm glad I live in France, with a French licence.


Under the new road safety bill a French licence won't stop you getting points here or disqualified by totting here, should you commit endorseable offences.

There will be no escaping the punitive measures of the state.

If these punitive measures are enforced against foreign motorists with the same vigour as parking fines / congestion charge penalties, i.e. none at all, then I rather think foreign motorists will have little to worry about....

Originally posted by dirtybeemer dirtybeemer wrote:

....withstrain...

Wha'? Couldn't find this in the Oxford English Dictionary.......

Quote ...Did anyone get Mr Englander's solicitors phone no by the way ?

It wasn't Nick Freeman.



Edited by Horsetan

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Doive View Drop Down
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Points: 1212 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-February-2006 at 18:30
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

You know the law & you have control of your vehicles speed. There have been speed limits on our roads if not for most of the time you have been driving, then all the time you have. You can't balme others for your inability to keep to the limit.

You seem utterly incapable of taking into account the extreme ease with which most of us non-livvy like non-superhumans manage to stray those few little mph past the limit, and so pass the camera doing 68 in a 60 (easy to do in a nice smooth 323i, eh shorty?!). We become criminals, and because of this unintentional misdemeanour our licence and career are taken from us.

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

If you value your licence, your livelyhood, then why not take responsibility for it & protect it ?
Nobody can "mess with your life" then.

None of us choose to break the limit in this way - so do we all drive around wearing our speedometers like a pair of glasses, just in case we speed even a slight little bit? Must follow every law of the land to the lastest finest detail, eh livvy? No matter what the consequences to self.
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-February-2006 at 18:41
Originally posted by Doive Doive wrote:


None of us choose to break the limit in this way - so do we all drive around wearing our speedometers like a pair of glasses, just in case we speed even a slight little bit? Must follow every law of the land to the lastest finest detail, eh livvy? No matter what the consequences to self.


Doive

68 isn't a little past the limit in a 60.

We either choose to, or we are not paying enough attention. We all know the consequences if we do that. It's no good bleating about it & trying to blame others when we are the ones who have all of the control over it.

You don't need to constantly stare at the speedo to avoid getting prosecuted for speeding, it will be counter productive. But you do need to concentrate, show restraint & an awareness of your speed at all times. These are not super human skills, they are ones you were taught when you learned to drive & displayed for your driving test.


Edited by livvy
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Doive View Drop Down
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Points: 1212 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-February-2006 at 19:12
Fall some distance behind a line of cars on a busy A road, and observe as they approach a speed camera (I've done this). Watch how the first car insinctively brakes despite being under the limit, and then also watch how that braking manouvere transfers down the entire line, despite all being appropriately spaced and travelling at the correct speed. I have seen this time and time again, and I know you will say 'it's their choice....they choose to brake' etc etc - it has become instinctive! People see a speed camera and they brake - natural reaction my friend. Surely even you cannot say this is promoting safe driving?
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livvy View Drop Down
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Points: 745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-February-2006 at 19:36
Originally posted by Doive Doive wrote:

Fall some distance behind a line of cars on a busy A road, and observe as they approach a speed camera (I've done this). Watch how the first car insinctively brakes despite being under the limit, and then also watch how that braking manouvere transfers down the entire line, despite all being appropriately spaced and travelling at the correct speed. I have seen this time and time again, and I know you will say 'it's their choice....they choose to brake' etc etc - it has become instinctive! People see a speed camera and they brake - natural reaction my friend. Surely even you cannot say this is promoting safe driving?


Hide the cameras then.

Seriosuly though, that's why I favour SPECS cameras if we are going to have them.
Because there is no point braking for them & they measure you speed over a greater distance (not punishing someone who is only slightly over for a short space of time). Because of that they will also be effective over a greater distance as well.

People braking for a camera shouldn't be a problem for you though. If they are speeding & you are not, they will be going away from you before they brake giving you lots of time. If you both aren't speeding provided you've left adequate distance between you & them then their braking shouldn't be a concern. To be honest I look ahead of the car infront, spot the camera & expect them to brake, so it's no surprise or problem to me if they do.


Edited by livvy
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