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GATSOS OVER-READ YOUR SPEED

Monday 10th January

Court case could prove thousands of speeders innocent

Gatso-based evidence could be responsible for convicting thousands of innocent motorists, according to research by David Edgar, a retired electronics engineer and former professional inventor.

The Gatso speed cameras he has investigated over-estimated motorists' speed by up to 25 per cent because the time between the two flash photography images, which constitutes legal evidence on which prosecution is based, was much longer than specified.

Edgar's 35-year unblemished driving record is under threat from prosecution by West Midlands police for allegedly driving 41 mph in a 30 mph zone. Wallsall-based Edgar has pleaded not guilty to the driving offence and will defend himself in the Birmingham Magistrates� Court on Thursday 13 January 2005.

After receiving his summons, Edgar became suspicious of the accuracy of the Gatso-based evidence and developed a laser aligned, optically triggered digital timer that measures to an accuracy within 1/100th of a second the time lapse between the two flashes produced by a Gatso speed camera.

He became concerned about the accuracy of the Gatso speed camera when his requests for disclosure about how speed cameras are calibrated for accuracy were ignored by both the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. His requests for information sent to Gatsometer in the Netherlands and UK were also ignored, as was his formal application to Birmingham Magistrates� Court to force disclosure.

Edgar said, �I really felt they had something to hide so I decided to investigate the critical timing accuracy."

Having tested the opto-digital timer on a number of Gatso speed camera sites including Newtown Birmingham, Walsall and Cannock area, Edgar soon discovered that well over 80 per cent of them were inaccurate. In particular, there were serious timing errors between the two flashes which are supposed to flash at exactly half a second (500 milliseconds) apart.

Edgar's tests show the timings are anything but accurate. Typically they are 630 milliseconds apart, which changes legal evidence about how far a vehicle has travelled. In particular, it creates the illusion that a vehicle has travelled much further between flashes than it actually did -- some 25 per cent further.

For instance a vehicle travelling at 35 mph would have travelled an extra 2.03 metres when the timing between the two flashes is 630 milliseconds, and that puts the vehicle in the next set of parallel line markings which are spaced two metres apart.

Since these serious inaccuracies clearly affect the reliability of the actual recorded speed of a vehicle, it suggests that photographic evidence cannot be relied on by the prosecution, as reasonable doubt exists concerning the accuracy of that evidence.

Having now investigated and researched the Gatso method of speed camera entrapment the police and CPS are relying on Mr Edgar said � I have also discovered some other disturbing facts that affect the accuracy and reliability of the entire measuring system, these will be brought to the attention of the Birmingham Magistrates Court on Thursday 13 January 2005, come along it should be an interesting day in court.�

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign commented, "If Mr Edgar's claims are proven then almost everyone convicted by a Gatso speed camera will be able to apply to have their case reopened. I have spoken to Mr Edgar and his extensive research seems unequivocal."

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=9689

i hope we get to read what else happens ,, its like a thriller :)

B 7 VP wrote: having NOTHING to show for 8 years of misrule

I wouldn't say that. Ok they might have done a few things that I don't agree with but they have also done a lot of things that I do agree with.

The government are not responsible for the technology involved in speed cameras. If this mans findings about gatsos turn out to be true then it just means that the governemt put their faith in a technology that wasn't as good as the manufacturers claims. Something a great many people have been guilty of over the years.

Are you a member of the Conservative party? 

I agree, it would be very interesting to see what actually happens! I am sure the press will get hold of this, if they don't already, and will no doubt be ready to pounce when the time arises!!

Paul

i got mail yesterday from dundee police,65 in a 50 hidden cam,gutted!!

mell wrote: i got mail yesterday from dundee police,65 in a 50 hidden cam,gutted!!

Condolences, Mell.

I do believe the government have done some worthwhile things since they have come into power. The reason why a lot of people think they haven't is because they pay too much attention to the rubbish printed in the newspapers.

The problem with complaining about speed cameras is that you are complaining about being caught breaking the law. Whether you like it or not if you break the law you will get into trouble. The problem isn't with the speed cameras themselves, it's with idiotic speed limits are totally out of date (not referring to the 30 limit)

I have heard about the Freedom party.

All I would say about this is that when a lot of people talk about freedom they are only looking at it from one side. For instance a friend of mine was angered when i told him that the company I worked for were going to introduce random drug testing at work as a deterent. He said it was an infringment of my civil liberties.

However is it not an infringement of my civil liberties if one of my colleagues chooses to come to work 'high' and causes an accident?

This is just one example which came to mind.

B7VP, the reason asked the slightly flippant coment about your political alegence is that you frequently fill your posts with material which is either blatantly political or with strongly political overtones.

 

spokey wrote: Peter Fenwick wrote: I do believe the government have done some worthwhile things since they have come into power. Such as? I'm not trying to be flippant here, I'm really interested, because in my own life, I have not seen anything that they have done, of which I approve or have thought "good idea". But perhaps I am missing things.

The fact that the economy is in relatively good shape for one. Compared to Europe and America, Britain's economy has faired really well in over tha last few years despite all the ups and downs. The pound remains strong and interest rates are low. 

I for one think ASBOs are a good idea, as well af Family tax credit, not to mention the impending ban on smoking in places that serve food. Also the introduction of community security wardens and banning Fox Hunting.

I also don't think that the NHS is as bad as people say. OK it is never going to be as good as private care, but then how could it? They managed to deal with my mothers cancer very well and she certainly has no complaints.

Crime is on the decrease, although I admit there remains a problem with behavior caused by binge drinking, but in general it is going down. Although this is not scientific, I have been a victim of crime on five occaisions, non of which have been when the present govenment have been in office.

I think Tax on company cars was long overdue, although I don't think people who need a company car like reps should pay anything like as much as people who have one purely as a perk.

Don't get me wrong there are some things i don't like and that I feel very strongly about, speed cameras for one, along with the misguided view that a large proportion of accidents are caused by people speeding. 

I was never a great supporter of the war in Iraq and I certainly don't like the way we jump when America says so.

I don't think the current government are great by any stretch, but IMO they are better than the lot we had before.

Edited by Peter Fenwick

Peter Fenwick wrote: spokey wrote: Peter Fenwick wrote: I do believe the government have done some worthwhile things since they have come into power. Such as? I'm not trying to be flippant here, I'm really interested, because in my own life, I have not seen anything that they have done, of which I approve or have thought "good idea". But perhaps I am missing things. The fact that the economy is in relatively good shape for one. Compared to�Europe and America,�Britain's economy has faired really well in over tha last few years despite all the ups and downs. The pound remains strong and interest rates are low.�

The economy is not really in good shape: Gordon Brown inherited an economy in good shape, and managed not to cock it up for about 3 or 4 years. However, I for one am bricking it, as I see the effects of taxation and spending on government bureaucracy, rather than boosting things that will actually sustain themselves. I fear that when it eventually does implode, it's going to make the boom and bust years look like a walk in the park. Employment is only high, because the civil service has swollen so much.

Peter Fenwick wrote: I for one think ASBOs are a good idea, as well af Family tax credit, not to mention the impending ban on smoking in places that serve food. Also the introduction of community security wardens and�banning Fox Hunting.

Ah, well, I'm fairly libertarian, you see, and I think that the idea of banning hunting is far too interfering. But that's an emotional issue, so I'll leave that alone.

As a passionate non-smoker, I see the ban of smoking as another invasion into our lives.

As to ASBOs, they are a tool that makes it sound like they're doing something, I personally can't see it working. And they are also indicative of the state encroaching on our lives: "do as mommy says or daddy will spank you -- except he won't because we've also made spanking illegal".

I don't qualify for family tax credit (or any other blooming benefit) and the whole mechanism of getting benefits is far too complicated and there are far too many hoops and hurdles. This is great for Gordon, because he makes it difficult to get the money and he can justify a huge army of bureacrats to manage all these bits of paper.

Peter Fenwick wrote: I also don't think that the NHS is as bad as people say. OK it is never going to be as good as private care, but then how could it? They managed to deal with my mothers cancer very well and she certainly has no complaints.

I think the NHS sucks lemons, and it's very expensive for what we get. I think they might do a better job if they didn't have so much form-filling to contend with, and that has definitely not improved under Saint Tony. But anyway, new Labour did not invent or implement the NHS, so that isn't exactly an achievement of theirs.

Peter Fenwick wrote: Crime is on the decrease, although I admit there remains a problem with behavior caused by binge drinking, but in general it is going down. Although this is not scientific, I�have�been a�victim of crime on five occaisions, non of which have been when the present govenment have been in office.

I think it's unjustifiable to say that crime is on the decrease. There is no clear statistical evidence to support that assertion. It is easy to muddy those waters by not keeping a consistent measure, and just recently the government changed the way they measured crime.

Every time I have been a victim of crime, it has been under this government.

Peter Fenwick wrote: I think Tax on company cars was long overdue, although I don't think people who need a company car like reps should pay anything like�as much as people who have one purely as a perk.

I think we have too many motoring taxes already, the one that upsets me the most is my fuel card: I pay about 70p/l in duties to Gordon, then because the company gives me a fuel card, I pay tax on that tax. And I pay VAT on that tax. And I pay road tax and the roads are not being kept in shape and the money certainly isn't being spent on providing a decent alternative. But I don't have a company car...

Peter Fenwick wrote: Don't get me wrong there are some�things i don't like and that I feel very strongly about

And I agree with you on all of those!

Peter Fenwick wrote: I don't think the current government are great by any stretch, but IMO they are better than the lot�we had before.

I'm not even comparing them to the previous government in the UK, I'm comparing them to governments I've been exposed to around the world, mostly in the third world. Unless it was pretty much a dictatorship, where the people's opinion didn't matter at all, I don't think I've ever seen a government so vacuous and achievement-free.

Let's look at it from your side:
* ASBOs
* Foxhunting ban
* Community Support Officers
* Banning smoking in restaurants
* Alleged drop in crime
* Failure to destroy the NHS
* Managed the economy
* A tax credit (or many, complicated ones)

Hardly a stellar list of achievements after 7 years in power with a crushing majority, is it?

Now consider:
* Banning parents from smacking their children
* More taxes
* More national insurance
* More bureaucracy
* More bureaucrats
* A prime minister who regularly takes freebies from dodgy people
* A prime minister who regularly reinstates people who do things that should end their political career
* A prime minister who is far more concerned with his perception in the rest of the world and with being the lapdog of Dubya, than with people and issues in the UK
* And of course, the minor issue of taking us into a wholly unjustifiable war

I doubt that even Alan B'stard would have gotten away with all that!

Anyway -- I can't see us meeting in the middle of this one, so feel free to launch a rebuttal and have the last word, but I promise not to prolong this.

Edited by spokey

mell wrote: i got mail yesterday from dundee police,65 in a 50 hidden cam,gutted!!

I'm sorry to hear that Mell, thats a fair way over, so if you can please take advice, you could even try Gary, he cant get it cancelled but may be able to help you deal with it.

I've just noticed in the local rag that a young chap has just been banned for doing 70 in a 40, thats sounds very bad on the young chaps part, but what they dont tell you is up until a couple of months ago that was a 70 limit, its a dam dual carrageway, speed limt has been lowered due to whinging villagers who buy a house on a trunk road and then decide they dont like traffic !