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livvy 
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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 Posted: 21-January-2006 at 13:08 |
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I have said before that I personally think that a small increase in the 70 limit on motorways could be accomodated with variable limits on motorways. I don't think that unlit sections at night would be a good idea for that though, as you still have to be able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear (ie avoid something stationary & unlit in the road, such as a broken down car in lane 3.)
That said there are other considerations as well with the setting of speed limits, not just safety.
Things such as noise pollution & emissions.
I believe the last time a speed limit increase was ruled out it was on the basis of noise pollution & recent government reports have suggested that enforcing our current motorway limits, rather than raising them, is important to help us meet our obligations to international treaties with regards to emission level controls.
I personally would rather see more focus to keep traffic flowing better within our current limits, than focus on raising them. After all a higher limit is no good if you are sat stationary in a jam.
Edited by livvy
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Jack735
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 14-September-2005
Location: Edinburgh
Status: Offline
Points: 1055
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 12:41 |
Im all for variable speed limits but think, as others have said before, there are times when the limit should be above 70.
Two clear examples spring to mind are road works where people are risking AND losing their lives. Have the speed limit dead slow during the time they are working but higher when they are not. OK maybe not higher than 70 but I find nothing more irritating than going through road works at 30/40 when theres no-one there.
And the other is on the motorways/dual carriageways at night when theres nothing for miles and Im pottering down the road at 70.
But I agree with 20 mph zones round places where kids are about.
And .. wouldnt it be safer if lane changing was not allowed say 200 metres before and after motorway junctions and in crawling motorway traffic?
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dutch
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 17-December-2005
Location: lakeside Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 438
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 11:43 |
all these points point back to the outdated driving test
why is there two levels of the test. standard and advanced.
why are new drivers not shown how to drive on motorways.
why are driving tests not carried out every 5years on everybody.
its not the speed that kills its the nut behind the wheel not observing whats going on around him and acting on it. when travaling at speed you are more attentive to your surroundings. when slower driving for long periods you are more distracted.
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e39,1200 bandit
cooper S, Z3 topazbleu
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spokey
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Offensive and obnoxious tub of lard
Joined: 02-March-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1948
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 11:24 |
 livvy wrote:
Keep to the limit, |
Even though it's demonstrably more dangerous?
So it's not about saving lives then? It's more about adherence to the law?
livvy wrote:
because you can't hope to match the speed of every other vehicle out there. |
I could aim for a median, though. It's easy enough. And it's a lot safer.
livvy wrote:
Let them come to your speed (as they should).
If you are the slowest just stay in lane one.
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No other person
is going to slow down because I'm travelling at the speed limit -- I
have proven this repeatedly on the motorway. I've also never slowed
down because some old duffer in lane one is doing 60 on a motorway,
either.
And I'm not the slowest, there are HGV's I want to overtake. But
because I dare not go over the speed limit, lest I invoke the wrath of
Be'elzebub, I will slow down all the other cars who are going faster
than the speed limit when I do, possibly causing an accident and
probably increasing everyone else's stress levels.
And it's demonstrably less safe than just travelling at the same speed as everyone else.
But you're saying I should be less safe, and more within the law?
So it's NOT all about safety then?
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Ciao,
Spokey
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thepits
Moderator Group
Joined: 09-July-2003
Location: far far away
Status: Offline
Points: 10000473
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 11:19 |
livvy wrote:
Of course it relies on constant monitoring & the operators remembering to change the limits. |
Inefficient humans interfering in your computor world!
livvy wrote:
Just because it says a limit don't suppose you can safely do that speed though, it is after all the maximum in good circumstances not what is definitely safe & achieveable. |
Good answer, but completely missing my point!!
livvy wrote:
The idea of variable limits is noble & my personal experience of travelling on roads with them has been quite positive.
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Cats know your every thought.
But don't care.
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 11:17 |
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Keep to the limit, because you can't hope to match the speed of every other vehicle out there. Let them come to your speed (as they should).
If you are the slowest just stay in lane one.
Edited by livvy
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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spokey
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Offensive and obnoxious tub of lard
Joined: 02-March-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1948
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 11:16 |
livvy wrote:
You can't hope that everyone who is travelling faster than
you will all be travelling at the same speed either. Without a limit
that means that everyone would be having to tarvel at the same speed as
the very fastest, which is a complete nonsense as you would be asking
the least skilled to be doing the speed that the most skilled think
appropriate. It will be beyond them to safely do that.
The safest way is to set a common safe limit & rigidly enforce that.
Bring it down to the lowest common denominator.
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Livvy, you are NOT answering my question. Avoid the sophistry and hair-splitting, please!
If I get on the motorway and the flow of traffic is travelling faster
than the speed limit, should I travel more safely and break the speed
limit, or should I travel less safely at or below the speed limit?
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Ciao,
Spokey
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 11:12 |
thepits wrote:
livvy wrote:
Variable limits are a measure to try & do that as well (everyone travelling together at a speed so you don't keep getting the stop & start, high speed then low speed. Instead it's one moderated constant flow.) |
Cobblers! 
Went to the NEC last Friday - on the M42 at 08:30, variable speed limit in use, 60...50...40...40...40... and I was almost stationary by then, doing 10-20mph, looking at the signs says "Wish I could do 40!"
Came back in the afternoon (3pm ish) and now my way home was showing 60...50... with an almost empty road!
So with the few of us on the road at that time all bunched up together, annoyed, as we can't ignore the limit as 90% of the signs have camera's on them!  |
Of course it relies on constant monitoring & the operators remembering to change the limits. Just because it says a limit don't suppose you can safely do that speed though, it is after all the maximum in good circumstances not what is definitely safe & achieveable. The idea of variable limits is noble & my personal experience of travelling on roads with them has been quite positive.
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 11:08 |
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Spokey
You can't hope that everyone who is travelling faster than you will all be travelling at the same speed either. Without a limit that means that everyone would be having to travel at the same speed as the very fastest, which is a complete nonsense as you would be asking the least skilled to be doing the speed that the most skilled think appropriate. It will be beyond them to safely do that.
The safest way is to set a common safe limit & rigidly enforce that.
Bring it down to the lowest common denominator.
It's either that or make all drivers as capable as the best. That is the only way you can up the limit is raise the overall standard.
Edited by livvy
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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thepits
Moderator Group
Joined: 09-July-2003
Location: far far away
Status: Offline
Points: 10000473
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 10:29 |
livvy wrote:
Variable limits are a measure to try & do that as well (everyone travelling together at a speed so you don't keep getting the stop & start, high speed then low speed. Instead it's one moderated constant flow.) |
Cobblers! 
Went to the NEC last Friday - on the M42 at 08:30, variable speed limit in use, 60...50...40...40...40... and I was almost stationary by then, doing 10-20mph, looking at the signs says "Wish I could do 40!"
Came back in the afternoon (3pm ish) and now my way home was showing 60...50... with an almost empty road!
So with the few of us on the road at that time all bunched up together, annoyed, as we can't ignore the limit as 90% of the signs have camera's on them!
Edited by thepits
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Cats know your every thought.
But don't care.
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Rhys
Moderator Group
Coffee addict...
Joined: 02-February-2003
Location: from the Latin locātiō
Status: Offline
Points: 10053
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 10:23 |
Nigel wrote:
Hard call spokey, and only one you can make, if it makes you feel any better, I will tend to drive with the flow....but I'm still breaking the law.
Now, how about if we get everyone trained, then we may be able to increase the limits ?
Livvy often bashes me with the point, that in my quest for higher limits I am increasing the differential between different groups of road users, and thus increasing danger.
Its all a balancing act ! |
Quite true, given that HGV's are restricted to 60 mph, and can occcupy 2 lanes of a 3 lane motorway - what happens when one pulls out infront of a car going faster than say 80 mph - especialy if there is another one following (lots of braking)
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V reg Rustbucket Merc C220 Cdi estate
J Reg Saab 900i 16v
'63 Ford Anglia 105e deluxe
R reg Honda PC50 moped..
No BMW as yet...
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Nigel
Moderator Group
Joined: 09-November-2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6941
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 10:20 |
Hard call spokey, and only one you can make, if it makes you feel any better, I will tend to drive with the flow....but I'm still breaking the law.
Now, how about if we get everyone trained, then we may be able to increase the limits ?
Livvy often bashes me with the point, that in my quest for higher limits I am increasing the differential between different groups of road users, and thus increasing danger.
Its all a balancing act !
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Best Wishes
Nigel
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spokey
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Offensive and obnoxious tub of lard
Joined: 02-March-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1948
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 10:06 |
livvy wrote:
I agree that it is safest if everyone is travelling at similar speeds.
But that should not be at speeds above our limits. That is safest.
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But livvy, I can't make everyone else drive at a given speed. If I get
on the motorway, and everyone else is doing 80 or 85, and I drive at
the speed limit, then I am driving less safely, more dangerously, than
if I were to drive at the speed limit.
So, what do I do, drive less safely at the speed limit, or drive more safely at a faster speed?
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Ciao,
Spokey
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 10:05 |
Peter Fenwick wrote:
No of course it isn't. It 's about having power over someone and exercising that power. |
WE have safety controls over many aspects of our lives & speed limits are just one of them. Those are societies rules. It's the job of the Police to uphold societies rules.
Edited by livvy
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 10:04 |
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-August-2003
Location: Lost somewhere in time...
Status: Offline
Points: 6484
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 10:02 |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 10:02 |
Rhys wrote:
livvy wrote:
In our worst year recorded we had 9,169 deaths from only 2.5 million vehicles on our roads.In our best (last year) we had our lowest number of deaths 3,221 with 58.1 million registered vehicles (our highest number ever.)
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does this include congestion - the shear volume of traffic can have an effect as well. You're less likely to have a fatal accident if you're stood still. Though I expect the number of minor accidents has risen due to impatiant people lane swapping and cutting-up in these situations.
Also does this take into account traffic calming measures such as speed bumps and chicanes etc. |
Total number of collisions haven't changed greatly despite the vast increase in vehicle numbers, they did rise to a peak in the 60's but have steadily dropped slightly since to where our current levels are at about the 1940's number of accidents again.
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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spokey
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Offensive and obnoxious tub of lard
Joined: 02-March-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1948
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 09:58 |
livvy wrote:
spokey wrote:
livvy wrote:
Everybody should be driving at a similar speed yes. But not more than the speed limit.
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But that directly contradicts what he's saying: he's saying if everyone
else is speeding, then it's safer for you to travel at the same speed
as everyone else.
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You
can get everyone travelling at the same speed by increasing the slower
drivers to the speed of the faster (which may be beyond their
capabilities) OR reducing the speed of the faster drivers to that which
everyone is capable of travelling at safely.
It's the same
result & I prefer the second because everyone is driving within
their capabilities that we have all been tested to.
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Livvy, is this all about safety or not?
If it's about safety, then his numbers quite clearly show that even if
you are breaking the speed limit, you are driving more safely if you go
with the flow.
So, is this about safety or not?
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Ciao,
Spokey
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 09:56 |
spokey wrote:
livvy wrote:
Everybody should be driving at a similar speed yes. But not more than the speed limit.
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But that directly contradicts what he's saying: he's saying if everyone
else is speeding, then it's safer for you to travel at the same speed
as everyone else.
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You can get everyone travelling at the same speed by increasing the slower drivers to the speed of the faster (which may be beyond their capabilities) OR reducing the speed of the faster drivers to that which everyone is capable of travelling at safely. It's the same result & I prefer the second because everyone is driving within their capabilities that we have all been tested to.
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Rhys
Moderator Group
Coffee addict...
Joined: 02-February-2003
Location: from the Latin locātiō
Status: Offline
Points: 10053
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Posted: 21-January-2006 at 09:56 |
livvy wrote:
In our worst year recorded we had 9,169 deaths from only 2.5 million vehicles on our roads.In our best (last year) we had our lowest number of deaths 3,221 with 58.1 million registered vehicles (our highest number ever.)
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does this include congestion - the shear volume of traffic can have an effect as well. You're less likely to have a fatal accident if you're stood still. Though I expect the number of minor accidents has risen due to impatiant people lane swapping and cutting-up in these situations.
Also does this take into account traffic calming measures such as speed bumps and chicanes etc.
Edited by Rhys
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V reg Rustbucket Merc C220 Cdi estate
J Reg Saab 900i 16v
'63 Ford Anglia 105e deluxe
R reg Honda PC50 moped..
No BMW as yet...
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A risk analysis of speeding